Is British History ....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the start of a thousand protests that phrase .... the latest is reported here

since the 37 steps signally fails to mention the ice age i for one shall stay on the train ..... this approach will not reveal the mystery it misses steps eh ...

early british isles history is quite fascinating with DNA studies continuing to suggest complexities about a stable basic settlement from the end of the ice age but this is all disputed in academic circles ...as it should be ...

if any one could define English without reference to Kings/Gangsters and Violence then i suppose it might have a history .... but mainly it is a criminal record until the 18th century when a great intelligence began to spread on these islands now that is truly history .....

What are days for?
Days are where we live.
They come, they wake us
Time and time over.
They are to be happy in:
Where can we live but days?

Ah, solving that question
Brings the priest and the doctor
In their long coats
Running over the fields.

[aeolium]

Yes, that list is pretty poor, no Napoleonic wars (except Trafalgar), no First World War....

I'm currently reading a history of Roman and Anglo-Saxon Britain and am constantly reminded of my almost limitless ignorance of the subject...

[vinteuil]

Yes, that list is pretty poor...

... almost no mention of the British Empire!

Well, a brief nod to Canada in 1763, and to our leaving bits of the empire in 1947 and 1960 -

but almost nothing about India - surely we should have a basic outline - occupation of Madras 1640 - acquisition of Bombay 1665 - Clive at Arcot 1751 - Warren Hastings 1772 - Mutiny 1859 - transfer from East India Company to government rule - 1947 partition and independence...

The Paxman series on the empire was pretty thin. But really I think the yoof of today ought to know something of how we got to where we are now ... If T Blair and friends had known just a little bit about the disastrous British involvement in the various 19th cent Afghan Wars....

[aeolium]

The Paxman series on the empire was pretty thin. But really I think the yoof of today ought to know something of how we got to where we are now ... If T Blair and friends had known just a little bit about the disastrous British involvement in the various 19th cent Afghan Wars....

Yes indeed - an extensive course of tuition on European/world history from at least the C18 should be mandatory for all foreign secretaries and PMs. Blair seemed to be not only totally ignorant of history but strangely for a lawyer unaware of the development of civil liberties over the centuries as well as large areas of international law.

[amateur51]

Spot on, vints & aeolium

In contrast, when Nick Kent took the Tricycle Theatre's 12 playlets about The Great Game over to the USA last year for a short tour, some people at the Pentagon were so gobsmacked by what they'd seen that they paid for Kent & Co to return to give two extra complete performances for Pentagon staff

http://www.tricycle.co.uk/home/about-the-tricycle-pages/about-us-tab-menu/archive/archived-theatre-production/the-great-game-usa-tour/

http://www.tricycle.co.uk/3157/how-the-great-game-emptied-the-pentagon/

The arrival of the Coalition Government saw the Tricyle's Arts Council Grant cut heavily, a move which proved to be the straw that broke Nick Kent's back after some 18+ years of fundraising, directing and building up a deserved reputation for first-class innovative theatre and community involvement: Government-dictated decision-making at its most crass and destructive

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes indeed - an extensive course of tuition on European/world history from at least the C18 should be mandatory for all foreign secretaries and PMs. Blair seemed to be not only totally ignorant of history but strangely for a lawyer unaware of the development of civil liberties over the centuries as well as large areas of international law.

While I agree with vinteuil about Afghanistan, I feel that we place too much emphasis on Empire. I don't feel responsible for its negative aspects and I absolve every member of my family, all of whom were in poverty during the 19th Century and effectively white slaves as were the vast majority of Britons. The faddish misplacing of guilt angers me considerably. The real lessons that should be learnt now from British history are mainly positives. Well designed engineering built to last; the promotion of democracy; and the severe conditions alleviated by the welfare state. I think it is about time that living conditions without such things are fully brought to light and presented as a nightmarish possibility which socially in the 21st Century we just can't afford to risk.

[Pabmusic]

...The faddish misplacing of guilt angers me considerably. The real lessons that should be learnt now from British history are mainly positives. Well designed engineering built to last; the promotion of democracy; and the severe conditions alleviated by the welfare state. I think it is about time that living conditions without such things are fully brought to light and presented as a nightmarish possibility which socially in the 21st Century we just can't afford to risk.

I don't know where to begin in support. It's not just the things you mention, but (for instance) the fact that the welfare sate has its origins in the Elizabethan poor laws. In other words, the idea that some form of central authority has a responsibility for the least fortunate of society has been a central part of our system for at least 500 years. No other society - none at all - compares with this. Of course, the way the system operated could be scandalous by our modern standards, and Dickens and less well known agitators drew attention to many of the abuses, but never was there an attempt to throw it all away in favour of a 'continental' feudal system and revolution. Yet today we've forgotten this, and talk as if our history has been of the most oppressive kind - and almost uniquely so!

Teaching the truth about history is so difficult to do, and we are famously good at creating mythologies. We have resisted invasion since 1066! (apart from the 18 successful ones since then, that is). But we must not turn to cartoon caricature and Hollywoodisation, in which our past is so much more evil than anyone else's. If only the Inquisition had reached the wicked islanders!

[BBMmk2]

Increasing;ly I am finding this. How can anyone have a understanding of their country, if they nhave not had a certain grounding at school?I mean, they would never have heard of The Plantagenets?

[MrGongGong]

I think many people misunderstand what some "subjects" in education are about.

Studying History can be as much about the process of what History IS rather than the learning of an accepted narrative of the history of a particular place. When I hear people ranting on about how things are "missed out" they are really misunderstanding what the content of the subject actually IS. The worse offenders are (surprise surprise ) politicians who have almost all been through an education that looks at the world in a particular kind of way and are completely unable to understand that there even COULD be other ways of thinking about things.

One can teach music very successfully by practically doing it, by singing , playing etc without any idea of what Opera is or even that Bach existed, if one is inspired to find out by an educative process then we have more than enough resources and information readily available.

Many people who have learn't the kings of England off by rote at school have absolutely no understanding at all of what any of it actually means or how contemporary events connect (Torch relay anyone ? )

[aeolium]

While I agree with vinteuil about Afghanistan, I feel that we place too much emphasis on Empire. I don't feel responsible for its negative aspects and I absolve every member of my family, all of whom were in poverty during the 19th Century and effectively white slaves as were the vast majority of Britons. The faddish misplacing of guilt angers me considerably.

Lat1, while I agree to a certain extent about the question of guilt, you cannot ignore the impact of the British empire (and other European empires) on the development of modern politics and society in those formerly imperial territories - most obviously for instance in the assistance towards the creation of Israel from the Balfour declaration on, and British involvement in propping up the Shah in Iran during the 1940s and 1950s. Any modern Middle Eastern foreign policy cannot operate in ignorance of Britain's previous involvement in the region over the last century and a half at least.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The purpose of education is (or should be) to empower people (not just kids: I don't think education stops after "schooling"). A good command of oral English, to make it more difficult for those with a vested interest to lie to you in speech; a good command of literacy to make it easier to spot written lies; a good command of Numeracy, to make it more difficult to cheat someone; and a good command of how those in power use the Media to deceive. (I would add a secure Music education to stop the likes of Cowell - Simon, not Henry! - and Lord Voldemort from making money from a shoddy product.)

The trouble with "History" (even narrowing the field to "British History") is that there is so much of it, all with equal or comparable claim for attention. "The Plantagenets" is an important part of the development of the English political system, but then so is the Synod of Whitby. And what was the use of "knowing about" the Plantagenets if it didn't stop the corrosion of present-day civil rights that had their origin in Magna Carta? And if we are genuinely interested in British History, why are we so negligent of Scottish and Welsh history? (Anybody care - WITHOUT GOOGLING! - to name the Kings of Scotland prior to James VI?)

[vinteuil]

you cannot ignore the impact of the British empire (and other European empires) on the development of modern politics and society in those formerly imperial territories - .

... and also, of course, the impact that the British Empire has had on the development of modern politics and society in the United Kingdom!

[MrGongGong]

The purpose of education is (or should be) to empower people (not just kids: I don't think education stops after "schooling"). A good command of oral English, to make it more difficult for those with a vested interest to lie to you in speech; a good command of literacy to make it easier to spot written lies; a good command of Numeracy, to make it more difficult to cheat someone; and a good command of how those in power use the Media to deceive. (I would add a secure Music education to stop the likes of Cowell - Simon, not Henry! - and Lord Voldemort from making money from a shoddy product.)

The trouble with "History" (even narrowing the field to "British History") is that there is so much of it, all with equal or comparible claim for attention. "The Plantagenets" is an important part of the development of the English political system, but then so is the Synod of Whitby. And what was the use of "knowing about" the Plantagenets if it didn't stop the corrosion of present-day civil rights that had their origin in Magna Carta? And if we are genuinely interested in British History, why are we so negligent of Scottish and Welsh history? (Anybody care - WITHOUT GOOGLING! - to name the Kings of Scotland prior to James VI?)

indeed

I'm reminded (again !) of Dahlhaus
and surely that's no way to refer to ALW

[aeolium]

And what was the use of "knowing about" the Plantagenets if it didn't stop the corrosion of present-day civil rights that had their origin in Magna Carta?

The 'use' is not least that the knowledge of the slow and difficult struggle for the establishment of civil rights helps to animate the opposition from politicians, historians, lawyers and many others to their corrosion. The greater the knowledge about the use and abuse of power and the rise of legal and constitutional constraints on its use the better.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The 'use' is not least that the knowledge of the slow and difficult struggle for the establishment of civil rights helps to animate the opposition from politicians, historians, lawyers and many others to their corrosion. The greater the knowledge about the use and abuse of power and the rise of legal and constitutional constraints on its use the better.