Charlie Chaplin and MI5

[Guest]

This goes to show how ludicrous MI5 was in the 1950s. It was so removed from the lives of people with ordinary origins that their places of birth mattered more politically for some reason than their backgrounds of poverty. Perhaps even today Charlie Chaplin is too strong a symbol of rags to riches as the Government takes us all towards rags:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102325/Was-Charlie-Chaplin-Frenchman-MI5-files-reveal-born-near-Paris--Russia.html?ITO=1490

My grandmother knew Charlie Chaplin. She was born 13 months after him in 1890 and lived throughout her life in Walworth, London, SE17, where he also lived. We discussed her memories of him frequently in 1981 when she was a very alert, impeccably honest, happy for little reason, 90 year old and I was 18, still at school studying history.

She, like everyone she knew as a child, was born into slums, among the worst in the country. However, in that environment, Chaplin was sadly picked on by many as the extent of his poverty stood out. Because his mother dressed him in ill-fitting shirts and shorts made from her dresses, he was seen as a joke. Now they emphasise she was disturbed. But it is easy in this to see how he became not only a comedian but someone opposed to the political system even in wealth.

http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,9336,6321,00.htm

It hardly matters where he was born, although I still believe it was in East Street, Walworth (the "East Lane" market). The fact is he was there, essentially a South London lad. No amount of selectively worded journalism in 2012 should airbrush away the very British conditions they all endured. Expect no expressions of regret as there have been with slavery.

[Nick Armstrong]

Don't know about all the Daily Mail's piffle but fascinating recollections from Granny Lat Many thanks

[amateur51]

Thanks for telling us about your memories of your grandmother, Lat. It's easy to forget how hard so many people had it - and of course, although people are undoubtedly better off these days in certain material terms, there are still dreadful instances of overcrowding, poor diet leading to ill-health, illiteracy, children having to become carers, prostitution, in other words, poverty.

It was not just MI5 of course - in the USA there was Hoover & McCarthy for Chaplin to deal with too.

[Lateralthinking1]

Thank you both for these thoughtful comments. Much appreciated.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thank you both for these thoughtful comments. Much appreciated.

Lat: much of what you post here and elsewhere brings to mind the world richly portrayed in Michael Collins's book "The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working Class" - Collins drew an excellent Channel 4 documentary out of it, making a strong non-racialist case for the history not to be lost amid multicultural rhetoric, and using the district where Chaplin was born and raised as his own base. You might even have known Michael? if not, or haven't come across his work, the reading of the first few pages of the opening chapter offered in the Amazon link below is well worth taking time out for.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Likes-Us-Biography-White-Working/dp/1862077789#reader_1862077789

S-A

[Lateralthinking1]

Thank you serial_apologist. It was very nice of you to do this. I have read this book and identify with parts of it very closely. I hadn't realised that it had been featured on Channel 4 and would very much like to see that programme.

I have never met Michael Collins. He is just a year older than me but he was raised in Walworth. I wasn't but all of my mother's side of the family were. He partially focuses in the first few pages, and afterwards, on the Larter family. From memory, that is his mother's side? I must read it again.

I know that one of my grandmother's best friends until the late 1970s-early 1980s was someone called Maud Larter. She may have been Michael's grandmother or even his great-grandmother. Certainly related to him, I feel sure. So, yes, there is a connection between our families but, historically, among the older generations.

I think Michael's book really capture's the essence. When I read it, there were many moments when I thought "that is exactly what it was like atmospherically - I have never seen this portrayed in literature and the media". It doesn't attempt to deal with every point or have all the answers but there is a truth and radicalism in the book that is rarely seen in other places. Best regards, Lat.

[Anna]

Lat, there is an article in The Telegraph about this which says:
One possible answer to the mystery emerged last year when Chaplin’s family found a letter in a locked drawer suggesting he had been born on a gipsy camp in Smethwick, near Birmingham.
The note was sent to the star in the early 1970s from Jack Hill who said his own aunt was a Gypsy Queen and he had been born in her caravan.
It is known Chaplin’s mother Hannah had the maiden name Hill and descended from travellers.
Therefore, if he was born in a travellers camp it's no wonder there is no birth registration. On the 1891 Census it does state he was born in Walworth, but having done my family history I know not to depend upon their honesty when it comes to answering official questions!

[Lateralthinking1]

Anna. Thanks. Interesting. I know what you mean and sometimes it wasn't deceit. There are two spellings of my grandmother's maiden name because some in the family couldn't write anything including their names. They obviously spoke the name to someone for an early census in their London accents and so the "e" in the name became an "i" whereas those who could write kept to "e".

It was always said that Charlie Chaplin was born in Walworth. Then last year the letter emerged about the gypsy caravan in Smethwick. Now today it is France or even Russia!! I could believe any of these things really. The travelling caravan seems very plausible. Abroad is not implausible. It doesn't matter to me hugely where it was if he was in Walworth before the age of two.

I just think that newspapers having in big letters "Was he French or Russian?" is an attempt to create a Chaplin with a different image away from the truth of his experience. One with more mystique and less hardship perhaps, perhaps so some can cash in. I suppose the other argument following "The Artist" is that it is a lead in for new people but that would have happened anyway.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thank you serial_apologist. It was very nice of you to do this. I have read this book and identify with parts of it very closely. I hadn't realised that it had been featured on Channel 4 and would very much like to see that programme.

I have never met Michael Collins. He is just a year older than me but he was raised in Walworth. I wasn't but all of my mother's side of the family were. He partially focuses in the first few pages, and afterwards, on the Larter family. From memory, that is his mother's side? I must read it again.

I know that one of my grandmother's best friends until the late 1970s-early 1980s was someone called Maud Larter. She may have been Michael's grandmother or even his great-grandmother. Certainly related to him, I feel sure. So, yes, there is a connection between our families but, historically, among the older generations.

I think Michael's book really capture's the essence. When I read it, there were many moments when I thought "that is exactly what it was like atmospherically - I have never seen this portrayed in literature and the media". It doesn't attempt to deal with every point or have all the answers but there is a truth and radicalism in the book that is rarely seen in other places. Best regards, Lat.

Lat, as happens I have a videotape of that programme.

[Lateralthinking1]

Oh. I'm not sure what we do here. I would very much like to see it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh. I'm not sure what we do here. I would very much like to see it.

PM on the way, Lat