'Endeavour' ITV 1

[Cockney Sparrow]

A new series has begun. I was disappointed in the first episode - too many characters were just caricatures of stereotypes; no real feel of time and place; and what is Chief Superintendent Bright doing with his hair over his collar?

I bought a set of the initial series (1, 2 maybe 3) but haven't watched more than one episode IIRC (Mrs CS not a fan). I enjoy Lesser and Allam, in anything, in principle but there are certainly criticisms on these boards......

[Serial_Apologist]

A new series has begun. I was disappointed in the first episode - too many characters were just caricatures of stereotypes; no real feel of time and place; and what is Chief Superintendent Bright doing with his hair over his collar?

Apart from it being noticeable how unrealistically tidy most scene settings are for period dramas, this goes particularly for hair style portrayals, as can be attested any day just by re-tuning to Talking Pictures TV and checking movies from the 1940s, 50s and 60s to see how they used to do it. Going by personal experience of growing my hair longer in winter, it is very difficult to transition from crew cut to the medium cuts and short backs and sides that were commonplace up until the late 1960s and 1970s as a consequence of decades of barberism. Mainstream long hair between approximately 1970 and 1978 was in turn followed by the floppy and then the shaven back and sides of today. The resulting unmanageable hair has possibly accounted for the legitimisation of the dischevelled through-a-hedge-backwards look for pop stars, male models and so on, that came in in the 1990s, which would certainly not have passed as an attractive let alone "cool" look in the 1950s. 60s or even the mullet-styled 70s! Oh and by the way this general atmosphere of artificiality is one reason I never go for re-makes of historical-themed films: we will have to give it at least another 20 years of social decline before we again see comparable levels of dereliction that lend authenticity to the post-war films.

[eighthobstruction]

Apart from it being noticeable how unrealistically tidy most scene settings are for period dramas, this goes particularly for hair style portrayals, as can be attested any day just by re-tuning to Talking Pictures TV and checking movies from the 1940s, 50s and 60s to see how they used to do it. Going by personal experience of growing my hair longer in winter, it is very difficult to transition from crew cut to the medium cuts and short backs and sides that were commonplace up until the late 1960s and 1970s as a consequence of decades of barberism. Mainstream long hair between approximately 1970 and 1978 was in turn followed by the floppy and then the shaven back and sides of today. The resulting unmanageable hair has possibly accounted for the legitimisation of the dischevelled through-a-hedge-backwards look for pop stars, male models and so on, that came in in the 1990s, which would certainly not have passed as an attractive let alone "cool" look in the 1950s. 60s or even the mullet-styled 70s! Oh and by the way this general atmosphere of artificiality is one reason I never go for re-makes of historical-themed films: we will have to give it at least another 20 years of social decline before we again see comparable levels of dereliction that lend authenticity to the post-war films.

....with the lack of access to blessed gardens due to inner city tower blocks and cramped terra housing -massonettes and like....it appears the youth of today innit seems to be doing topiary, and clipping the edges of themselves....

[Serial_Apologist]

....with the lack of access to blessed gardens due to inner city tower blocks and cramped terra housing -massonettes and like....it appears the youth of today innit seems to be doing topiary, and clipping the edges of themselves....

A new term for which might be "self-topiary".

I remember Dad's gardener coming up to him and asking, "You wouldn't happen to have an edge cutter I could use on your edges, would you, Mister Xxxxxx?" "Do you mean an edge cutter, or an 'edge cutter?" Dad asked in a four candles moment. "An edge cutter, Mister Xxxxxx; you know - for cuttin' edges" came the reply.

[Cockney Sparrow]

A new term for which might be "self-topiary".

I remember Dad's gardener coming up to him and asking, "You wouldn't happen to have an edge cutter I could use on your edges, would you, Mister Xxxxxx?" "Do you mean an edge cutter, or an 'edge cutter?" Dad asked in a four candles moment. "An edge cutter, Mister Xxxxxx; you know - for cuttin' edges" came the reply.

Nice one.....great story

The disclosure you had a gardener in your household (OK, your father's doing, you were only a child......) brings to mind the pregnant pause amongst colleagues (2 women, myself + another male colleague) when I mentioned, chatting after a meeting, something our cleaning lady had told us. Apparently, whatever our circumstances (we all had children with both parents working) it was not OK to have domestic help.

[antongould]

Did anyone spot Joe Linton …… ????

[johncorrigan]

I came across a Rebus with John Hanna in progress on a freeview channel late evening - very engaging. I then looked up the series and see the first period featured John Hanna, who hadn't wanted to act but produce the show. The Wickipedia page (probably Wicki..) related how after the initial series, Hanna relinquished involvement because the commissioner favoured shorter programmes, and more superficial plots etc.

I might look out more - certainly of the Hanna episodes. I've not read the books (in fact I rarely read non-fiction books of any nature.....).

In my VH opinion, Hanna is not a patch on Ken Stott when it comes to playing the grizzly Edinburgh detective; and not sure if this is contentious, but, for me, the Rebus books are not a patch on the TV series when Ken is swilling the pints. Someone else mentioned 'Cracker' - I'm still haunted by Robert Carlyle's performance in a couple of early episodes - totally chilling. Haven't seen the new Endeavour yet, but will, I suppose, though the reviews here don't leave me expecting too much.

[antongould]

In my VH opinion, Hanna is not a patch on Ken Stott when it comes to playing the grizzly Edinburgh detective; and not sure if this is contentious, but, for me, the Rebus books are not a patch on the TV series when Ken is swilling the pints. Someone else mentioned 'Cracker' - I'm still haunted by Robert Carlyle's performance in a couple of early episodes - totally chilling. Haven't seen the new Endeavour yet, but will, I suppose, though the reviews here don't leave me expecting too much.

The Carlyle episodes were IMVVHO outstanding jc …. agree about Stott - but better than the books …. Not so sure …..

[Nick Armstrong]

A new series has begun. I was disappointed in the first episode - too many characters were just caricatures of stereotypes; no real feel of time and place; and what is Chief Superintendent Bright doing with his hair over his collar?

Yes sadly it’s pretty thin, formulaic stuff isn’t it… It’s frustrating that Lesser & Allam have such cardboard cliché writing to deal with. I also found CS Bright’s lengthy locks surprising!

I did quite enjoy the This Is Your Life red herring though

[Pabmusic]

Well, I watched it, thanks to illegal posting on YouTube.

It was ok, though rather routine - poorly balanced, with so many facts blurted out in the last 10 minutes. So I hope that the quality improves during the series. But it highlights a problem with detective series.

I think we're now at episode 34 or 35 of Endeavour - which is a lot. Many more than most writers ever produced as books. After all, Colin Dexter wrote only 13 novels and a handful of short stories, though he did write a few 'outlines' for early TV Morse episodes. R. D. Wingfield (Jack Frost) wrote just six (though each made several episodes - except the last (A Killing Frost) which was never used, and has a huge murder count).

My point is that, after so many episodes it's just too much to expect something genuinely novel. Truly wonderful if it is! But routine and formulae are the fallback - especially when so much time is obviously spent on the 1960s/1970s atmosphere.

I have to admit that I have a great admiration for those detective stories that don't take themselves too seriously - even make fun of it all. Edmund Crispin's Gervase Fen and Christopher Fowler's Bryant & May for instance. Formulaic plots don't matter so much then.

Can't wait for the next Robert Galbraith.

[Nick Armstrong]

Edmund Crispin's Gervase Fen

Same here! Managed to collect them all, and have hugely enjoyed those I’ve read so far.

(Crispin/Montgomery’s musical other life adds to the fascination!)

I’ve never heard of the Fowler oeuvre though - must investigate

[Pabmusic]

...I’ve never heard of the Fowler oeuvre though - must investigate

They are very good - there's about 20 books. And Fowler plays around with different styles of mystery - including an 'Agatha Christie' country house one with a butler. The detectives are two genuinely old codgers from the Peculiar Crimes Unit - something set up during WW2 from academics and misfits, rather like Bletchley Park.

[antongould]

In my VH opinion, Hanna is not a patch on Ken Stott when it comes to playing the grizzly Edinburgh detective; and not sure if this is contentious, but, for me, the Rebus books are not a patch on the TV series when Ken is swilling the pints. Someone else mentioned 'Cracker' - I'm still haunted by Robert Carlyle's performance in a couple of early episodes - totally chilling. Haven't seen the new Endeavour yet, but will, I suppose, though the reviews here don't leave me expecting too much.

have you seen the new Rebus jc ……. ????????

[richardfinegold]

I just heard a Choral arrangement of Chopin Prelude in C Minor
Op 28/20 arranged for chorus on the radio. My wife another Endeavor episode had started

[LMcD]

have you seen the new Rebus jc ……. ????????

IMHO most spin-offs are less satisfactory than the originals off from which they are spun, and things usually get worse if there are major cast changes . I never really took to Endeavour or Lewis, 'Frasier', where there were no such changes, is an honourable exception. I can't speak for the reboot, as it's on a streaming service to which I do not subscribe. Only Fools and Horses coped pretty well with the replacement of a grandparent by a previously unmentioned uncle, but who'll be watching The Green Green Grass and Rock and Chips in years to come?.