Michael Tippett: The Shadow and the Light

[RichardB]

here it came across sounding like Hindemith!

The influence of Hindemith on Tippett is, for some reason I can't fathom, almost always underestimated. I also can't fathom the way that whenever Tippett's 2nd Symphony is mentioned, the fact that Boult messed up the beginning of the first performance has to be mentioned too, with the implication that the fault lay with Tippett's awkward writing. I don't think it has much to do with "inhuman trampling" though - Tippett spoke, I believe, of the inspiration coming from hearing Vivaldi!

[Pulcinella]

The influence of Hindemith on Tippett is, for some reason I can't fathom, almost always underestimated. I also can't fathom the way that whenever Tippett's 2nd Symphony is mentioned, the fact that Boult messed up the beginning of the first performance has to be mentioned too, with the implication that the fault lay with Tippett's awkward writing. I don't think it has much to do with "inhuman trampling" though - Tippett spoke, I believe, of the inspiration coming from hearing Vivaldi!

Oops: sorry.

In the recording of that first performance, Boult apologises and makes it quite clear that it was his fault.

Still available as a download:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B1W4LKLC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=28X7DP042P4IX&keywords=tippett+symphony+boult&qid=1686298613&s=music&sprefix=tippett+symphony+boult%2Cpopular%2C63&sr=1-1-catcorr

[hmvman]

Oops: sorry.

In the recording of that first performance, Boult apologises and makes it quite clear that it was his fault.

Still available as a download:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B1W4LK...sr=1-1-catcorr

The incident was discussed in the film and that clip was played.

I also enjoyed the film and found it very interesting, as someone not very well familiar with Tippett's music. But now determined to explore more.

[Petrushka]

Oops: sorry.

In the recording of that first performance, Boult apologises and makes it quite clear that it was his fault.

Still available as a download:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B1W4LK...sr=1-1-catcorr

That's the sort of thing that Boult would have done whether it really was his fault or not. He had more integrity than to blame the orchestra or the composer! Neither would have gone down well.

[Barbirollians]

Yes I thought it was very good and agree with oddoneout . I am not sure if I were Meirion Bowen I would have liked it that much.

It will of course oddoneout still be available on iplayer .

[smittims]

(non-railway enthusiasts needn't read my last paragraph).

I think too much has been made of the incident at the second symphony premiere. It wasn't by any means the worst or only time such a thing has happened , they got it right the second time and in the second peformance, a broadcast three days later. But people love a story, and the idea that there is some fascinating mystery or 'cover-up' involved.

In his autobiography 'Twentieth -century blues' Tippett says that Boult had difficulty with the rhythms, due to his unfamiliarity with pre-classical music. A favourite culprit for many years was the leader, Paul Beard, who re-phrased the violin parts ; but a detailed examination of the incident in Oliver Soden's biography of Tippett identifies the woodwind section as the start of the problem; and Beard was not opposed to modern music; he conducted a broadcast of Schoenberg's Five Pieces at short notice after Malcolm Sargent withdrew.

Boult's apology was taken at the time as a gallant gesture, taking the rap as he was the conductor, in the same way that Commodore Smith was responsible for the Titanic sinking. Another factor mentioned is Malcolm Sargent's avoidance of modern repertoire in the preceding seven years as Chief Conductor, BBC SO, thus affecting the orchestra's ability to tackle new music.

One thing that's always struck me is the fast tempo Boult adopted at the start of the symphony, surely with the composer's approval if not prescription, as he was present at the rehearsals. I've never heard anyone take it that fast, certainly not Tippett himself in the two recordings I've heard of him conducting it, nor Colin Davis in the 1967 Argo recording with the excellent LSO.

Maybe, like that facing turnout on the down-fast at the south end of Potter's Bar Station, it's just one of those things one can't avoid looking out for each time.

[Barbirollians]

Wikipedia makes a claim that Barbirolli blamed Beard and said they should have followed the original notation but there is no reference for the claim . Odd if so as Barbirolli rehearsed it for a Manchester New Music Festival in the early 1960s according to Michael Kennedy but abandoned it as he said the music was not worth the effort !

[Bryn]

Wikipedia makes a claim that Barbirolli blamed Beard and said they should have followed the original notation but there is no reference for the claim . Odd if so as Barbirolli rehearsed it for a Manchester New Music Festival in the early 1960s according to Michael Kennedy but abandoned it as he said the music was not worth the effort !

Ouch! That does not reflect well on Glorious John.

[LHC]

I think too much has been made of the incident at the second symphony premiere. It wasn't by any means the worst or only time such a thing has happened...

In Richard Morrison's history of the LSO, he includes a quote from Andre Previn about orchestral mishaps:

"They gave me a lot of good advice, my friends in the LSO. You know - practical, cynical advice about how to get round technical problems. We were doing some Tippett that was extremely complex, and afterwards I went to have a drink with Barry Tuckwell [then the principal horn and LSO chairman]. He said: 'Let me tell you something. When you do a piece that is terribly complicated, if you ever get lost - and you will, everybody does from time to time - just look vague and elegant and we'll fix it. If you start flapping at us, we're all sunk. Everybody will go down the drain.'

Well a year or so later it happened in a concert. It was in a movement of Stravinsky's Symphony in C, which is unreal in its complications. It's like The Rite of Spring, only multiplied by ten. Anyway, I got awfully lost. So I followed the LSO's advice: look vague and elegant. And as a result I still have a career."

[Barbirollians]

Ouch! That does not reflect well on Glorious John.

I wonder whether it was too much for the Halle without amounts of rehearsal they could not afford.

[oddoneout]

Yes I thought it was very good and agree with oddoneout . I am not sure if I were Meirion Bowen I would have liked it that much.

It will of course oddoneout still be available on iplayer .

Well his alter ego, Bill Bowen, seems to have been a willing participant? Seeing him was a jolt, since it was a reminder of how many decades have elapsed since I was a student(not music) and first encountered him; I did not find out about his critic role until quite some time later. We did not get on, but I have him to thank for a wealth of musical opportunities and experiences, including the chance to spend some time, along with some other students, with Michael Tippett on a memorable day in 1976.

Not set up for iplayer, hence waiting for a repeat. It is I suppose a sad reflection of the dearth of new programming that repeats now are a major part of output and so the wait is often not that long, and indeed repeats are also repeated, thus increasing the chance of managing to catch one.

[Serial_Apologist]

Inevitably, for those with more than superficial knowledge of Tippett, this was going to have its shortcomings. However, perhaps it should be put into current context. A 90 minute documentary on prime time terrestrial TV about a composer not up there in terms of big names known to many people, whose music doesn't feature that much in R3 output and isn't that common I think in concert performance, is unusual to say the least. Thirty plus years ago, when "classical" music and musicians were not absent from general TV output(including the popular/light output such as chat shows), and C4 broadcast complete operas, such a documentary would likely have covered at least some of the points you raise, but that's another country as the saying goes.
I would suggest the focus on Child of our Time has to do with it being both the most widely known of his works and one which has considerable relevance to current day politics and issues.
I came in halfway through as Thursday night is choir night, and for this higgorant lay person there was much of interest; I hope it won't be too long before it is repeated on BBC4 and I can see the whole thing.

Yes, that's a very good point I hadn't considered.

[Barbirollians]

Well his alter ego, Bill Bowen, seems to have been a willing participant? Seeing him was a jolt, since it was a reminder of how many decades have elapsed since I was a student(not music) and first encountered him; I did not find out about his critic role until quite some time later. We did not get on, but I have him to thank for a wealth of musical opportunities and experiences, including the chance to spend some time, along with some other students, with Michael Tippett on a memorable day in 1976.

Not set up for iplayer, hence waiting for a repeat. It is I suppose a sad reflection of the dearth of new programming that repeats now are a major part of output and so the wait is often not that long, and indeed repeats are also repeated, thus increasing the chance of managing to catch one.

Oh right - you can of course wath iplayer on your computer.

[Boilk]

Too much of the programme was expended on Child of our Time at the expense of maturer more characteristic works, especially the symphonies and operas. Given the early interest in the English madrigal and Renaissance liturgical music how did the programme and its various contributers situate the composer in relation to Vaughan Williams and his similar interests/inspirations? The programme seemed full of holes - not only in consideration of works/periods overlooked or shambolically interspersed regardless of chronology, but in not discussing Tippett's belief system beyond his early Marxism and later pacifism. There was lots in his thinking that would prove of inestimable value in today's cynical world and was readily on offer to the makers. I would have liked to have heard more about his interest in Jungian philosophy. I was surprised by the first work illustrated, the Second Symphony, being taken at a much slower pace than the out-of-control headlong bulldozer-on-speed needed to convey the inhuman trampling effect I always thought Tippett intended for that opening: here it came across sounding like Hindemith!

Big missed opportunities in the documentary: I'll give it 6 out of 10.

My thoughts exactly (too bogged down in A Child of Our Time, Jung overlooked, the usual stories about 2nd Symphony premiere and non-orthodox opera libretti). I think 6 out of 10 is fair. Bridcut had wanted to make this film for a long time, but funding was no doubt the issue. The mix of personal life and music was good but hardly chronological - a knot garden in itself. I realise the complexities of some of the music are not prime time television-friendly but it would have between nice for major pieces like the 3rd Symphony to have got a look-in. In this respect, the lifelong significance of Beethoven to Tippett was a serious omission. And I think The Midsummer Marriage was dealt with in a sentence or two, versus 20 minutes for A Child of Our Time.

One revelation for me was not that the 3rd Piano Sonata's finale is a palindrome, but that it was composed only up to the halfway point, so presumably without consideration for how it would sound backwards - I thought he'd cleverly worked it all out in advance it sounds so good!!!

[Barbirollians]

I think funding makes this unrealistic,