'Difficult' books

[Ein Heldenleben]

And it isn't even finished!

You’re kidding !

[muzzer]

Not sure if it’s a good thing I own so many of the books listed so far on this thread, and have even read a few of them! I’m bad at sticking with long books anyway. Perhaps, as has been said of people who can’t finish ‘great books’, the problem is the reader not the book? ;)

Fwiw I think Ulysses is worth sticking with. Pynchon I love generally but have never finished one of his longer books. I really didn't think Middlemarch was worth the effort if I’m honest. Anna Karenina I’m neutral on (and have W and P to follow). The Magic Mountain I need to go back to, and get stuck in. No mention so far of William Gaddis. Now he’s properly difficult.

Slightly tangentially, on the subject of translation, I recently read the biography of Constance Garnett, written by her grandson, and which if you have an interest in that period of history, Russian writers, and Bloomsbury, I would highly recommend.

[smittims]

Glad to be reminded of some old favourites here: 'at Swim-two-birds' and 'Under the Volcano'. An old friend of mine had a cult-relationship with the latter, giving it the sort of reverence educated Germans reserve for 'Wilhelm Meister'.

Just for you, Heldenleben, her's my favourite sentence from 'The Wings of the Dove':

'He had delayed after she had joined him not much more than long enough for him to say to her, drawing her hand into his arm and turning off where they had turned of old, that he wouldn't pretend he hadn't lately had moments of not quite believing he should ever again be so happy.'

I showed that as a specimen to a writing course I once ran, and some of the older members actually liked it, thought it well-put. I'm told that James dictated his later novels and this may be the reason for his rambling style.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Glad to be reminded of some old favourites here: 'at Swim-two-birds' and 'Under the Volcano'. An old friend of mine had a cult-relationship with the latter, giving it the sort of reverence educated Germans reserve for 'Wilhelm Meister'.

Just for you, Heldenleben, her's my favourite sentence from 'The Wings of the Dove':

'He had delayed after she had joined him not much more than long enough for him to say to her, drawing her hand into his arm and turning off where they had turned of old, that he wouldn't pretend he hadn't lately had moments of not quite believing he should ever again be so happy.'

I showed that as a specimen to a writing course I once ran, and some of the older members actually liked it, thought it well-put. I'm told that James dictated his later novels and this may be the reason for his rambling style.

That’s Densher and Kate Croy isn’t it? By Jamesian standards convoluted yes but perfectly intelligible. He has this trick of making a statement and then turning it in on itself , making it almost a seeming paradox, complicating and modifying the meaning so tha5 the original meaning is subtly almost undermined. It certainly reproduces the complexity of one’s feelings on encountering anything but it’s also confusing and in some places just obscure. Just the opening chapter the encounter between Kate and her creepy father. What’s really going on there ? And what is his terrible misdemeanour.?

[ChandlersFord]

That’s Densher and Kate Croy isn’t it? By Jamesian standards convoluted yes but perfectly intelligible. He has this trick of making a statement and then turning it in on itself , making it almost a seeming paradox, complicating and modifying the meaning so tha5 the original meaning is subtly almost undermined. It certainly reproduces the complexity of one’s feelings on encountering anything but it’s also confusing and in some places just obscure. Just the opening chapter the encounter between Kate and her creepy father. What’s really going on there ? And what is his terrible misdemeanour.?

Fairly obviously, he raped her.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Fairly obviously, he raped her.

I’m not so sure. It’s a possibility but my assumption was that it was something financially murky resulting in the family’s straitened circumstances. Little of Kate’s subsequent behaviour fits that of a sexually abused child. Look at her relationship with Densher . She is pretty much in control throughout. She seems almost indifferent to sex neither repelled nor attracted by it but she is motivated by money. The sordid deal they do ( don’t want to give too much away ) shows that she sees sex as largely transactional - possibly that is consistent with your theory .But I think it’s about money - the humiliation of her poverty is what drives her.

[RichardB]

I find one big factor in making a book difficult is a lack of paragraphs and punctuation - this applies to at least one Beckett work mentioned above (The Unnameable), which is not a long book but which looks more formidable than it should owing to its appearance on the page as a long, breathless monologue.

But it had to be written like that! If that makes it more difficult for some people to read, so be it.

As for A Void, I'm reminded of the Queneau poem full of wordplay that ends "allez me traduire ça en anglais!" I don't think Perec (or Queneau) would have any problem with the idea of translating the untranslatable. It's just another aspect of the sort of games with language that fascinate such authors. If the result has more to do with the translator than with the author, then still the English version wouldn't exist at all unless the original had been written. (For those who don't know, the original novel is called La Disparition and doesn't contain the letter "e", and neither does the translation.) It's what in music would be called an arrangement or a cover version. Whether any particular person thinks it's worth actually reading is another question of course.

[ChandlersFord]

But it had to be written like that! If that makes it more difficult for some people to read, so be it.

As for A Void, I'm reminded of the Queneau poem full of wordplay that ends "allez me traduire ça en anglais!" I don't think Perec (or Queneau) would have any problem with the idea of translating the untranslatable. It's just another aspect of the sort of games with language that fascinates such authors. If the result has more to do with the translator than with the author, then still the English version wouldn't exist at all unless the original had been written. (For those who don't know, the original novel is called La Disparition and doesn't contain the letter "e", and neither does the translation.) It's what in music would be called an arrangement or a cover version. Whether any particular person thinks it's worth actually reading is another question of course.

Beckett was writing audiobooks before audiobooks were invented.