“Can't Get You Out of My Head”, Adam Curtis (iPlayer)

[eighthobstruction]

........I know that this isn't the type of series that needs a spioler alert....But spoiler alert

Maybe I forgot to take my afternoon dose of Gabapentin - but I was very depressed after Ep3 last night....My question is will he come back to this amoral dispersal of amoral Russian criminals to USA....how extraordinary that this was allowed to happen....lots of other extraordinary stuff like Gadfly author and her father binary twist....

[Nick Armstrong]

Gadfly author and her father binary twist....

Made my eyes stand out on stalks (as you already know 8th ) - the link between Shostakovich (I never did know what his Gadfly score was about till now, since first hearing it c.1977...) and the founder of Boolean algebra....

Will be starting Ep 2 later tonight probably

[vinteuil]

the founder of Boolean algebra....

... and what a family he had!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole#Family

.

[eighthobstruction]

... and what a family he had!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole#Family

.

wow....

[Serial_Apologist]

... and what a family he had!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole#Family

.

So, that's the reason we are required to pronounce the Z on the end of Pierre's surname!

[kernelbogey]

I binge-watched the whole series in fairly short order - because I could - and that may be part of the reason for my feeling somewhat confused about 'Curtis's argument'. And for this reason I began posting here about it hoping for some enlightenment.

The series has a kind of glittering surface, absolutely fascinating: major events of my life laid out before me in enticingly watchable film. But I was left unsure, after six episodes, what to make of the whole. Perhaps that revolutionary movements inevitably fail, implode or lead to new autocracies. Or that old power and wealth inevitably survives. The overall effect for me was close to being nihilistic.

[muzzer]

I binge-watched the whole series in fairly short order - because I could - and that may be part of the reason for my feeling somewhat confused about 'Curtis's argument'. And for this reason I began posting here about it hoping for some enlightenment.

The series has a kind of glittering surface, absolutely fascinating: major events of my life laid out before me in enticingly watchable film. But I was left unsure, after six episodes, what to make of the whole. Perhaps that revolutionary movements inevitably fail, implode or lead to new autocracies. Or that old power and wealth inevitably survives. The overall effect for me was close to being nihilistic.

Agreed. He’s very good at unearthing interesting connections but overall I don’t see an overarching thesis much less anything to feel positive about from his films.

[eighthobstruction]

....Well I take to be a bit like the weather....while climate may be changing, it is still weather, and weather is a continuum, and will always be there. Of course right now computers can predict it and we can see 'realtime' via satelite from t'other side of world. Similarly elites and power bases/international companies are shaping world on purpose/by accident....new attempts for some power emerge....I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you hadsn't thought yourself. These power grabs and losses....scientific leaps and mistakes are another contiuum....and within it Curtis finds nuggets of gold/coincidences/undercurrents....what was apparent and what was not at the time.
Beyond all I think Adam Curtis likes to make film. This what he does, and he has found a pasture he likes doing it in. If there is a message it is more personal I think - in all this mess, live the most calm, moral, creative life you can, and try to find a way to avoid the waves some others make....'things' will very soon change again, there will be another tyrant, or scientific discovery, or Natural Disaster....
Definitely nothing to feel positive about Ho Ho...

[Ein Heldenleben]

I binge-watched the whole series in fairly short order - because I could - and that may be part of the reason for my feeling somewhat confused about 'Curtis's argument'. And for this reason I began posting here about it hoping for some enlightenment.

The series has a kind of glittering surface, absolutely fascinating: major events of my life laid out before me in enticingly watchable film. But I was left unsure, after six episodes, what to make of the whole. Perhaps that revolutionary movements inevitably fail, implode or lead to new autocracies. Or that old power and wealth inevitably survives. The overall effect for me was close to being nihilistic.

Pretty much my thoughts on the Curtis oeuvre. Hugely entertaining to watch but when you start drilling down into history it all gets a bit flaky. His portrayal of Britain in the late 50’s as a place wracked by fear and uncertainty in the very opening for example You could just as easily argue that it was flushed with postwar optimism - The Festival Of Britain , the rapid expansion of the NHS , a major schools building programme, sustained economic growth, the emergence of teenagers as an economic force. On the other hand there’s a lot he’s (unprovably ) right about - the power of wealth and influence to defend itself through the ages being a prime example.

[eighthobstruction]

Pretty much my thoughts on the Curtis oeuvre. Hugely entertaining to watch but when you start drilling down into history it all gets a bit flaky. His portrayal of Britain in the late 50’s as a place wracked by fear and uncertainty in the very opening for example You could just as easily argue that it was flushed with postwar optimism - The Festival Of Britain , the rapid expansion of the NHS , a major schools building programme, sustained economic growth, the emergence of teenagers as an economic force. On the other hand there’s a lot he’s (unprovably ) right about - the power of wealth and influence to defend itself through the ages being a prime example.

there is a thread there too about Emotion....

[kernelbogey]

....Well I take to be a bit like the weather....while climate may be changing, it is still weather, and weather is a continuum, and will always be there. Of course right now computers can predict it and we can see 'realtime' via satelite from t'other side of world. Similarly elites and power bases/international companies are shaping world on purpose/by accident....new attempts for some power emerge....I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you hadsn't thought yourself. These power grabs and losses....scientific leaps and mistakes are another contiuum....and within it Curtis finds nuggets of gold/coincidences/undercurrents....what was apparent and what was not at the time.
Beyond all I think Adam Curtis likes to make film. This what he does, and he has found a pasture he likes doing it in. If there is a message it is more personal I think - in all this mess, live the most calm, moral, creative life you can, and try to find a way to avoid the waves some others make....'things' will very soon change again, there will be another tyrant, or scientific discovery, or Natural Disaster....
Definitely nothing to feel positive about Ho Ho...

I like that, Eighth. Your weather/climate metaphor took me into thinking about the astonishing achievenment of Nasa landing Perseverance on Mars, which is beaming back high-quality pictures and even the sound of the Martian wind. And it's only 63 years since we first heard Sputnik's beeps. And yet... there's been Trump, and now the Mayanmar coup, the ongoing China story. I guess Adam Curtis alerts us to these wild contrasts in the human story.

[eighthobstruction]

I like that, Eighth. Your weather/climate metaphor took me into thinking about the astonishing achievenment of Nasa landing Perseverance on Mars, which is beaming back high-quality pictures and even the sound of the Martian wind. And it's only 63 years since we first heard Sputnik's beeps. And yet... there's been Trump, and now the Mayanmar coup, the ongoing China story. I guess Adam Curtis alerts us to these wild contrasts in the human story.

I think this is probably what I project with the name 'eighthobstruction' (besides it being an ad lib on the Lars von Trier and Jørgen Leth film The Five Obstructions)....there is always something that gets in the way - and sometimes it is me. It is regularly completely predictible / unpredictible -hidden and leaps out at you - or you sleep walk into it / or it completely passes you by/ or you didn't even notice it unheeded. Sometimes you were too young, sometimes too old, sometimes too naive/gullible, too prejudiced, too priviledged etc....or in my case too sexy....Yes I meant to place space weather in other paragraph, always weather on all the planets etc


Shame we can't have a colaboration between Curtis and Carl Sagan....<<"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.
We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.
Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.
Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.">>

[Serial_Apologist]

I think this is probably what I project with the name 'eighthobstruction' (besides it being an ad lib on the Lars von Trier and Jørgen Leth film The Five Obstructions)....there is always something that gets in the way - and sometimes it is me. It is regularly completely predictible / unpredictible -hidden and leaps out at you - or you sleep walk into it / or it completely passes you by/ or you didn't even notice it unheeded. Sometimes you were too young, sometimes too old, sometimes too naive/gullible, too prejudiced, too priviledged etc....or in my case too sexy....Yes I meant to place space weather in other paragraph, always weather on all the planets etc


Shame we can't have a colaboration between Curtis and Carl Sagan....<<"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.
We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.
Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.
Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.">>

Some kind of conceptual framework is essential for approaching subject matter such as Curtis's here - all understanding in the sphere thereby channelled being mediated: through language and the form languages take that govern historical narrative, and through mythologies, or the received "truths" societies pass on as lessons to be learned and heeded. We hear a lot about people taking power who believe in nothing, in contradistinction from those in the past who held to one or another of the going Grand Narratives, such as the Enlightenment Narrative that claims guaranteed improvement through knowledge - scientific-based; the religious narrative which awaits a coming Messiah-type figure to rescue humankind; or the Socialist Narrative, which sees a teleology of inevitability through those in the "lower orders" gaining more and more power through democracy eventually replacing ruling orders based on money. Those who have gained the most at the top have managed to conceal the ever-growing wealth gap by using the means of their wealth to disguise the fact, while those below have been duped by an individualism of commercial greed. So far so good. Curtis implies that the pace of technology-driven progress has fractured all sense of a continuity of understanding that can bind societies together, or sections of society, based on common interests which can be democratically represented by political leaders who share the same aims and vision. The likes of Trump and Putin have emerged who hold to no beliefs or objectives guided by historical narratives or ideas of inequality or injustice in need of redress; it is they (as I understand Curtis to be saying) who exemplify the vacated ideological spot, and just seem to operate according to self-interest rather than wider goals. The end of the final (sixth) episode suggests to Curtis that Covid-19 may force a shift away from so narrow a vision; and in that I sense a glimpse of optimism.

[kernelbogey]

Serial - a helpful perspective: thanks.

Curtis's language includes the visual and the use of (often ironic) musical soundtrack, too.

I still maintain that his approach is cynical, iconoclastic.

[kernelbogey]

I think this is probably what I project with the name 'eighthobstruction' (besides it being an ad lib on the Lars von Trier and Jørgen Leth film The Five Obstructions)....there is always something that gets in the way - and sometimes it is me. It is regularly completely predictible / unpredictible -hidden and leaps out at you - or you sleep walk into it / or it completely passes you by/ or you didn't even notice it unheeded. Sometimes you were too young, sometimes too old, sometimes too naive/gullible, too prejudiced, too priviledged etc....or in my case too sexy....Yes I meant to place space weather in other paragraph, always weather on all the planets etc


Shame we can't have a colaboration between Curtis and Carl Sagan....<<"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.
We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.
Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.
Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.">>

I've been thinking about both parts of your post, Eighth, which is why I'm quoting all of it, which I usually avoid doing when I respond.

I can identify with the idea of getting in one's own way, but you also appear to be saying that you get out of the way of something that Curtis is saying. Starting a revolution? Or becoming an oligarch?

Or, since it was also a response to my#26, going to Myanmar to sort out the colonels?

Seriously, I'm curious....

I had to look up Carl Sagan, as I wasn't sure he is still alive or not, but he died in 1996. I think I've always had a prejudicial view of him as a lightweight, but your quote has been rattling around my brain, especially If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.. Where is all this from? I think I must have a book of his somewhere.