The Arts in Victorian Britain

[Ein Heldenleben]

Great thread this - I am very interested in Irish history and literature but knew nothing about the Irish Ring - now reading Richard’ s link for which much thanks ..,

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sadly, when John Huston came to make his (otherwise rather good) film adaptation of The Dead, he misread "The Bohemian Girl" as a translation of "La Boheme", and gave us tiny frozen hands instead of marble walls!

Actually - I think I've got this wrong. (I've just checked Dubliners and can't find a reference to "dear old Balfe" in "The Dead" where I thought it was --- )

[Ein Heldenleben]

The really excellent Jerry Nolan article on the Irish Ring outlines some of the many Moore and Irish opera references in Joyce though misses the bit in Ulysses about Moore’s statue in Dublin being above a gent’s urinal - ‘The Meeting Of The Waters’. There isn’t anything about Balfe and ‘The Dead’ though.... mind you I’ve only skimmed it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There isn’t anything about Balfe and ‘The Dead’ though.... mind you I’ve only skimmed it.

No - there wouldn't be - the reference I had in mind is at the end of "Clay", where Maria sings "in a tiny quavering voice" Marble Walls

When she had ended her song Joe was very much moved. He said that there was no time like the long ago, and no Music for him like poor old Balfe, whatever other people might say; and his eyes filled up so much with tears that he could not find what he was looking for and in the end he had to ask his wife to tell him where the corkscrew was.

[Ein Heldenleben]

A pedant writes -
Marble Halls ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I made a stalls-up.

Again.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It’s spell check really

[Historian]

I agree with the comments about our education system in the 19th century. We gave the world football, rugby and cricket rather than symphonies. At least Lytton Strachey in Eminent Victorians and Kipling with his "muddied oafs and flanneled fools" had the sense to see through it.

Isn't that being a little harsh on three team games which are still enjoyed over much of the world (especially football)? I seem to remember that Kipling's words were a criticism of the failure to adopt some form of national service at the time of the second Anglo-Boer War rather than a lament for the low standards of, for example, musical appreciation. However, both posters' comments on the education system in the 19th century seem sound to me. Also agree that Sullivan is an underrated composer. My apologies Oakapple if I misunderstood your meaning.

[greenilex]

May I suggest that Victorian women were the “outsiders” and much of their music remains unknown?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would think that it's a mistake to try and pinpoint a single group of the victims of the politico-social establishment in Victorian Britain as "the (sole) outsiders", greeni. Certainly women were dismissed as serious contenders in intellectual and creative life (to the extent that novelists such as Mary Ann Evans and the Bronte sisters had to publish under male pseudonyms, for example) - all part of the enforcement of their "role" in post-French Revolutionary society. But there's a whole pernicious spectrum of people whose talents were disregarded and left to rot unsupported: Working (and many middle)-class people, and religious and/or racial minority groups were also kept out of the Gentlemen's Club in Victorian Britain.

[Oakapple]

I didn't mean to suggest that we were wrong for promoting sports but games were and still are very important in private schools, if only to fill up time for boarders and keep them out of trouble. Kipling did indeed think that we should be more concerned with defending the country against a future war with Germany rather than, as he saw it, a greater interest in sports results among the nation. In Stalky & Co the main characters are not impressed by organized games at their school. Nevertheless, it should be noted that one reason the French play rugby is because they envied the political stability in Britain and they thought the game would build character in young people and lead to a better society.

Also, I must add a dissenting voice to The Bohemian Girl. One or two attractive songs but mostly dull Victorian parlour songs. It's been a while since I heard it but I seem to remember a not particularly distinguished gypsy song repeated many times near the beginning. I could say much the same of Parry's opera Blodwen. Understandably popular amongst the Welsh for a long time but it's mostly tame stuff. Sorry, and I expect a Celtic backlash.

[ardcarp]

Elgar's occasional Brahmsian stodge

Ah. Glad you said 'occasional'. I find no shades of Brahms whatsoever in what I know of Elgar...especially in the field of orchestration. Brahms is, IMVHO, a boring user of the orchestra, often stodgy, and using string+woodwind doublings far too much. Elgar, OTOH, is a brilliant orchestrator with a deep knowledge of instrumental sonorities.

But returning to the topic, may I mention Robert Pearsall (1795 - 1856)? He was not a 'great' (or even a professional) composer. He was by no means in a Victorian bubble. He was something of a polymath, and probably among the earliest to re-visit the English madrigal school. But he was a German scholar and lived part of his life in Switzerland.

Everyone knows In Dulci Jubilo, but try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM2xHJG2uJk

[ardcarp]

I just Googled '19th century British composers' and got this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:19th-century_British_composers

So there must have been some music going on; and there is a smattering of women's names among them. (I was a little confused by Fanny Arthur Robinson, I must admit.)

[Historian]

I didn't mean to suggest that we were wrong for promoting sports but games were and still are a very important in private schools, if only to fill up time for boarders and keep them out of trouble. Kipling did indeed think that we should be more concerned with defending the country against a future war with Germany rather than, as he saw it, a greater interest in sports results among the nation. In Stalky & Co the main characters are not impressed by organized games at their school. Nevertheless, it should be noted that one reason the French play rugby is because they envied the political stability in Britain and they thought the game would build character in young people and lead to a better society.

Then I did misunderstand your point: apologies. Agreed about the role of 'games' in the public school system. Interesting point abut the introduction of rugby in France, thank you.

[greenilex]

I didn’t mean to imply that women were the only outsiders, just that music was seen as an accomplishment suitable for a woman but she was only rarely able to reach an audience outside the parlour.