'They Shall Not Grow Old'

[Pabmusic]

Thank you Pabs. Are those spurs he's wearing? And the puttees, we heard about those in the film. And a curious backdrop behind him in the photo. But most of all the eyes. My grandfather was actually living in India at the start of the war, and signed up for the Indian Army – he was briefly a motorcycle dispatch rider. But he was transferred to the UK, and to the artillery. Here he is in his puttees, with his proud (Scottish) mother, my great grandmother. In the photo taken at his wedding in 1923 he looks about 20 years older.

Spurs indeed. He presumably worked with a team of horses to pull a limber.

[vinteuil]

... I don't really understand the role of artillery 'attached' to an infantry regiment.

... perhaps along the lines of Anspessade. I remember encountering and delighting in the OED definition when I were nobbut a lad -

"a cavalier, who, on his horse being killed under him, was made a petty officer in the foot."

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[LMcD]

My grandfather survived the Great War after being transferred to a labour battalion after he had been wounded. His twin brother was killed near the Regina Trench on 26.10.1916. I have a postcard sent by my great uncle to my grandfather before the latter was called up, celebrating their 20th birthday on 15.10.1915 and expressing thanks that my grandfather, who had not joined up that time, was being spared the horrors of war. My great uncle has no known grave, but I did find has name on the Thiepval memorial.

[Richard Tarleton]

"a cavalier, who, on his horse being killed under him, was made a petty officer in the foot." [/I]

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My cousin the Boer War veteran was in the "Mounted Foot" - they marched and generally galloped about on Cape ponies but dismounted to shoot at the Boers (some 49 actions in all). This was a tactical adaptation arrived at in the course of the war (he co-wrote a book about his unit's experiences - they were all volunteers from the City of London, he worked in the Stock Exchange and became the Colour Sergeant). Isn't it just that as tactics changed in the course of the war, mobile artillery units (of the Royal Field Artillery) worked in closer conjunction with the infantry? I don't know for a fact, but assume that's what it means. In later wars we find different disciplines within the same regiment?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Agreed on all points. The people who said they "enjoyed" the war seemed to have been mainly private soldiers whose pre-war lives were pretty grim. Interesting how many (it said) grew an inch and put on a stone with the food and training. Peter Jackson has commented in interviews about the appalling state of the English privates' teeth, clear from the films. And as for the sanitary arrangements

That is a very good point, RT - and although it doesn't apply to Butterworth (who seems nevertheless to have appreciated his being able to meet men from Social backgrounds different from his own), it does to those who were recorded and used in the film. The idea of the army in the First World War providing a better standard of living than that which many of the men had come from gives plenty of pause for thought about what their living conditions (and the way they were treated) must have been like.

[vinteuil]

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... had I ever been called to arms I think I shd've liked to have been in the Irregular Cavalry. Skinner's Horse wd have suited me pretty well. The uniforms were well tasty - from wiki :

"The old 1st Lancers wore yellow uniforms (uniquely in the British Empire) and the old 3rd wore dark blue. The "yellow" was actually close to mustard in shade but led to the regiment being nicknamed "Canaries" or "Yellow Boys" from its formation. Each regiment had the full-dress (mounted) long 'Kurta' worn with a turban and cummerbund for all ranks, also a full-dress (dismounted) or levee, dress for British officers only. These were not in general use after 1914 but could still be worn by officers on special assignments (e.g. as an aide-de-camp) or while attending court functions. The merged Skinner's Horse was assigned a dark blue full dress with yellow facings in 1922 but by 1931 the historic yellow and black had been restored. The yellow mess jacket and black waistcoat of the old 1st Bengal Lancers was adopted by the 1922 regiment of Skinner's Horse and was the cold weather mess dress until 1939..."

[vinteuil]

The people who said they "enjoyed" the war seemed to have been mainly private soldiers whose pre-war lives were pretty grim. Interesting how many (it said) grew an inch and put on a stone with the food and training. Peter Jackson has commented in interviews about the appalling state of the English privates' teeth, clear from the films. .

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... discussing this film, a good piece by Libby Purves in The Times of 12 Nov, controversially comparing the lot of the knife gangs of the youth of today with the poor of 1914 eager to enlist, beginning -

"A fresh shock of pity meets the “colourised” films of young men in the First World War; suddenly more vital as they set forth, grinning, playing, spinning a bottle — likely lads. Remember Philip Larkin’s line about the 1914 volunteers queueing as if at a football match: “An August bank holiday lark”. No more tedious farm or mill labour but a uniform, a fraternity, an adventure abroad. Comradely brigades emptied small towns: but on the first day on the Somme, the Accrington Pals were all but wiped out in minutes. Some may have thought seriously about the war, but probably not many. It was blithe dutifulness, a rite of passage. Wild to get in, boys lied about their ages... "

[vinteuil]

My cousin the Boer War veteran was in the "Mounted Foot" -

... not Slattery's Mounted Foot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pOwNXJkd7E

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery%27s_Mounted_Foot

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[Richard Tarleton]

Ha ha, no. They had the rather cumbersome title of the Mounted Infantry of the City Imperial Volunteers. He clearly found civilian life a bit quiet afer the Boer War, went to Canada as a gold prospector and fur trapper, and volunteered for Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in 1914. He started as a colour sergeant (again), was decorated for bravery and ended up as a colonel.

My great uncle Jack was in the 14th Punjab Regiment, serving in Waziristan (a popular posting in the Indian army, as there was a chance of some actual fighting. They greatly admired the tribesmen of the NW frontier, even if they took pot shots at them with their jezails from behind rocks). He also served in Palestine in 1918, Syria in 1918-20 and the Shanghai Defence Force in 1927 - he spent WW2 as a Japanese POW after the fall of Singapore. Here he is with his fellow officers circa 1920 (back row 3rd from left). Everyday uniform here - I do like all that leather.

[Pabmusic]

That is a very good point, RT - and although it doesn't apply to Butterworth (who seems nevertheless to have appreciated his being able to meet men from Social backgrounds different from his own), it does to those who were recorded and used in the film. The idea of the army in the First World War providing a better standard of living than that which many of the men had come from gives plenty of pause for thought about what their living conditions (and the way they were treated) must have been like.

Yes. My first long posting in the Prison Service was at Pentonville (early 80s) at a time when the convicted prisoners it held were serving 6 months or less. Consequently there were loads of 'dossers', tramps, and the like serving 7 days (usually for non-payment of fines). What would often happen was that on release they'd walk down the Caledonian Rd, take a bottle of whisky from a shop, drink it and give themselves up so that they'd be back with us in a day or two.

I recall reading somewhere that the Germans were amazed at how small many of our (often Northern) soldiers were, and what bad teeth they had. Industrial revolution I suppose.

[Pabmusic]

... one was in the Garrison Artillery, the sort which lobbed huge ordnance at the enemy from huge guns behind the baseline ...

As was Vaughan Williams, of course. One one occasion during the Spring Offensive he was ill and directed his battery lying down.

[Richard Tarleton]

As was Vaughan Williams, of course. One one occasion during the Spring Offensive he was ill and directed his battery lying down.

Did that contribute - do we know - to his deafness (thinking of that group photo of him with the enormous ear trumpet)? The noise must have been indescribable - everywhere, of course, but in the artillery even more so.

[Pabmusic]

Did that contribute - do we know - to his deafness (thinking of that group photo of him with the enormous ear trumpet)? The noise must have been indescribable - everywhere, of course, but in the artillery even more so.

Here's Butterworth writing to his step-mother, dated 22 July 1916:

We are out again for a rest, and I hope a good one this time. The last was not much use as we were still within the shell area, and the concussion of our own guns brought portions of the rickety cottages down every time.

We are now well back, and the noise of battle is only just audible ...

I have had charge of my company for the last fortnight, since the O.C. was wounded. I was standing beside him at the time, and I think the one shell laid out about a dozen (a very rare event). In fact I think I must have been the only man in the neighbourhood untouched, and suffered no after-effects except slight deafness in one ear, which has now passed off.

I tell you this to cheer you up!

[Richard Tarleton]

Yes. My first long posting in the Prison Service was at Pentonville (early 80s) at a time when the convicted prisoners it held were serving 6 months or less. Consequently there were loads of 'dossers', tramps, and the like serving 7 days (usually for non-payment of fines). What would often happen was that on release they'd walk down the Caledonian Rd, take a bottle of whisky from a shop, drink it and give themselves up so that they'd be back with us in a day or two.

I recall reading somewhere that the Germans were amazed at how small many of our (often Northern) soldiers were, and what bad teeth they had. Industrial revolution I suppose.

And in the closing moments, voices in the film were saying how the armistice was like being made redundant, going back to having nothing in their lives [I paraphrase - the structure, the camaraderie, the sense of purpose...]

My grandfather's poetry makes clear how much he loathed the business of war. Sometimes it reads like Tennyson on a bad day, occasionally it sinks into bathos (a poem about a badly-treated mule) but is at its best when gently humorous. He wrote about the travails of demobilisation, and the following, called "Demoralisation", about trying to slot back into middle-class life with his four terrifying sisters, later my great aunts (not surprisingly he headed back to his old job in India within a year or two):-

My warrior days are o’er,
I’m home again once more
Though still here in the flesh I’m “disembodied”,
And now, although it’s hard
I’m constantly on guard
Against committing faux-pas simply horrid.

Within a week or two
For garb of brighter hue
My khaki, like a serpent, I must slough off
And ‘ere my sisters say
That “I’m a grand success”,
The gaucheness of my manners I must rough off.

Though breakfast time is eight
I fear I’m sometimes late
My sister: “Were you like this in the army?”
I enter from the street
“Why don’t you wipe your feet?”
She sweetly says with looks that quite alarm me.

Our luncheon is at one
The second course begun
I’m sighing for a glass of stout or porter.
When in my dreams I hear
A voice in accents clear
Say “Will you kindly pour me out some water?”

The meal I dread the most
Despite hot-buttered toast
Is tea: utensils but a cup and saucer.
For sure, as tea time comes,
It’s “What a lot of crumbs
You make” – and every day she’s getting crosser.

I miss – I must confess
The free-and-easy mess
When one discussed mankind with perfect candour;
Where gum-boots were “correct”
And one was never checked
For throwing cigarette-ends in the fender.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

- that gives such an insight, RT; Many Thanks.