Shakespeare: Rank His Great Tragedies

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  • Conchis
    Banned
    • Jun 2014
    • 2396

    Shakespeare: Rank His Great Tragedies

    The recent discussion on R3 Shakespeare prodcutions got me thinking about how I would personally rate the 4 great trageides - which I take to be Hamlet, Lear, Macbeth and Othello. If anyone wants to make out a case for Timon Of Athens or Troilus and Cressida being a great tragedies (the latter probabl has a good claim to be in that company but isn't often seen, for very good reasons), then please go ahead....:)

    I'd rank them thusly:

    1) Hamlet - a bit obvious, perhaps, but I feel this is S. at his best, the best play he ever wrote and very possbily the greatest play in the English language. Why? The universality of the central character, the seamless integration of theme and action, the masterly control of such vast material, the wonderful characterisation, the perfectly placed moments of low comedy, the magnificent Polonius family sub-plot. It's long but it all works!

    2) Othello - my personal favourite S. play. That it hardly ever works in performane is not the author's fault, whatever crtiics say.

    3) Macbeth - this is actually as good as Othello and should properly tie for second place. Unlike Hamlet, this one hurtles forward at a breakneck speed (is there a scene missing? Personally, I don't think so but wouldn't care anyway). I like the Hecate scenes but would agree they add nothing to the play. The English court scene provides a necessary moment of stillness and contemplation and it can be very moving when you have a good actor playing Malcolm (as rarely happens).

    4) King Lear - to my mind, definteily the least of the 'four greats'. It suffes from having a passive central character who, once he sets the ball rolling, does not do things so much as have things done to him. The Gloucester-Edmund-Edgar subplot is unwieldy and keeps threatening to overwhelm the main action (properly speaking, they deserve their own play). Ulimately, I don't care enough about Lear, whom I find hard to forgive for his selfishness and egotism. But Cordelia doesn't make virtue attractive, either.



    OK: over to you....:)
    Last edited by Conchis; 04-05-18, 20:15.
  • Nick Armstrong
    Host
    • Nov 2010
    • 26538

    #2
    Not sure this is a game I'm inclined to play, I personally can't separate Macbeth, Othello and King Lear although I'd agree that Hamlet does seem to stand alone in terms of sheer scope and brilliance. Othello over the years is probably the one that has moved me least, and I know what you mean about it tending not to work in performance (though it did when I saw Ben Kingsley as Othello - his visceral performance made the psychological progression seem completely convincing). I think I'd disagree about King Lear - it's the one that in my experience can be most overwhelming. The Ian Holm Lear at the National in 1997 was phenomenal in the intimate Cottesloe, and needed seeing three times for the emotional 'fix' !
    "...the isle is full of noises,
    Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
    Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
    Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

    Comment

    • vinteuil
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 12843

      #3
      Originally posted by Caliban View Post
      Not sure this is a game I'm inclined to play...

      ... C, C#, Db, D, D#, Eb, E, F, F#, Gb, G, G#, Ab, A, A#, Bb, B.

      Go on, tell us which is your fave note!

      ( ... microtonalists: be patient, your time will come!)


      .

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      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        #4
        No, not being overly Coriolanally retentive, I don't find the prospect of ranking in public a particularly enthralling one.
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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        • Conchis
          Banned
          • Jun 2014
          • 2396

          #5
          Originally posted by Caliban View Post
          Not sure this is a game I'm inclined to play, I personally can't separate Macbeth, Othello and King Lear although I'd agree that Hamlet does seem to stand alone in terms of sheer scope and brilliance. Othello over the years is probably the one that has moved me least, and I know what you mean about it tending not to work in performance (though it did when I saw Ben Kingsley as Othello - his visceral performance made the psychological progression seem completely convincing). I think I'd disagree about King Lear - it's the one that in my experience can be most overwhelming. The Ian Holm Lear at the National in 1997 was phenomenal in the intimate Cottesloe, and needed seeing three times for the emotional 'fix' !
          Easily the best Lear I've seen was Michael Attenborough's production at the Almeida in 2013, with Jonathan Pryce. I only saw the Ian Holm production when it was televised.

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          • Nick Armstrong
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 26538

            #6
            Originally posted by Conchis View Post
            I only saw the Ian Holm production when it was televised.
            I found the TV version very disappointing - just didn't transfer from the stage, for some reason....
            "...the isle is full of noises,
            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

            Comment

            • Conchis
              Banned
              • Jun 2014
              • 2396

              #7
              Originally posted by Caliban View Post
              I found the TV version very disappointing - just didn't transfer from the stage, for some reason....

              Agreed: I was underwhelmed by it. Ian Holm is probably my favourite actor, too.

              Comment

              • Lat-Literal
                Guest
                • Aug 2015
                • 6983

                #8
                Lear, Macbeth, Hamlet and Othello.

                But I don't know Othello very well.

                Comment

                • agingjb
                  Full Member
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 156

                  #9
                  Is there really a jump in quality from this group of four to "Antony and Cleopatra"? But then where do you stop, having started?

                  Comment

                  • Conchis
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2014
                    • 2396

                    #10
                    Originally posted by agingjb View Post
                    Is there really a jump in quality from this group of four to "Antony and Cleopatra"? But then where do you stop, having started?
                    That occupies a strange position relative to the four plays I mentioned. It's highly rated but isn't much discussed and rarely staged. Like Troilus....connoisseurs love it but the public stays away.

                    Comment

                    • Bella Kemp
                      Full Member
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 466

                      #11
                      A fascinating question because it makes one think. Obviously King Lear is the greatest play ever written, but if I were asked which is my favourite play I would have to glide peaceably over the tragedies and land on the joyous The Winter's Tale: it has some of the loveliest poetry and takes us beyond tragedy to redemption and hope. Sorrow may endure for a night but joy cometh in the morning (as Shakespeare didn't say but often showed).

                      Comment

                      • Conchis
                        Banned
                        • Jun 2014
                        • 2396

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Bella Kemp View Post
                        A fascinating question because it makes one think. Obviously King Lear is the greatest play ever written, but if I were asked which is my favourite play I would have to glide peaceably over the tragedies and land on the joyous The Winter's Tale: it has some of the loveliest poetry and takes us beyond tragedy to redemption and hope. Sorrow may endure for a night but joy cometh in the morning (as Shakespeare didn't say but often showed).
                        Got to rise to the bait....but why is this? A lot of people seem to think it is - and, while I would not argue it's not a 'great' play, that doesn't blind me to its structural flaws and the hurried ending.

                        A Winter's Tale is another play that hasn't made much of an impression outside scholarly circles. Again, I think that is down to the fact that it's hard to get right in performance. Some people maintain that the last successful production in living memory was the Trevor Nunn/Judi Dench one in 1969!

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                        • Lat-Literal
                          Guest
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 6983

                          #13
                          The Winter's Tale is on BBC R3 tonight.

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                          • gurnemanz
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 7389

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bella Kemp View Post
                            A fascinating question because it makes one think. Obviously King Lear is the greatest play ever written, but if I were asked which is my favourite play I would have to glide peaceably over the tragedies and land on the joyous The Winter's Tale: it has some of the loveliest poetry and takes us beyond tragedy to redemption and hope. Sorrow may endure for a night but joy cometh in the morning (as Shakespeare didn't say but often showed).
                            I do agree on Winter's Tale. As you say, we get the complete tragic cycle - innocence corruption redemption, thanks to the happy survival of the innocent Perdita .... + comedy and all human life generally. Various lines that I learnt for A Level 50 years ago have stayed with me. eg Polixenes on his boyhood friend Leontes:

                            We were as twinn'd lambs that did frisk i' the sun,
                            And bleat the one at the other: what we changed
                            Was innocence for innocence; we knew not
                            The doctrine of ill-doing, nor dream'd
                            That any did.

                            I first saw the play in a Frank Dunlop Pop Theatre staging in the 60s with Jane Asher as Perdita (Tom Baker as the Bear?). Also a very memorable production at RSC as with Antony Sher as Leontes and most recently a couple of years ago with Kenneth Branagh as Leontes and Judi Dench as Paulina.

                            The later plays tend to go beyond go beyond catagorisation - Antony and Cleo, Tempest.

                            If armtwisted to rank the big four tragedies: I'd go Hamlet, Lear, Othello, Macbeth.

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                            • kernelbogey
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 5749

                              #15
                              Forgive a slightly off-topic post - but Verdi improves, I think, on the original with Otello.

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