Civilisations BBC 2

[jean]

On Radio 4 at the moment:

Professor David Cannadine argues that history has been wrong to categorise people according to their civilisation.

Far from belonging to a distinct grouping of this sort, peoples have always been interdependent and what may have looked like boundaries between empires and cultures turn out to be much more porous than we might imagine.

Nor do descriptions of 'we' (the civilised') and 'they' (the barbarians) stand scrutiny.

Cannadine looks at moments in history when these alleged divisions were most pronounced. The 18th century, under the influence of Gibbon's great Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, for example, chose to trace Western civilisation in a straight line back to Greece and Rome, carefully sidestepping the vital influences of the east. The same is true of the story of the Renaissance and of the New World discoveries where so called encounters between civilised and primitive peoples are much more finely nuanced.

Most importantly, the recent incarnation of the Us and Them theory of world divisions, which is enshrined in Samuel Huntington's book The Clash of Civilisations, predicted that the conflicts which would replace the Cold War battle of ideologies would be 21st century battles between the West and Islamic or Confucian 'civilisations'. Cannadine argues that this idea is sweeping, dangerous and wrong.

[kernelbogey]

I think the whole series is brilliant and am surprised by the criticism here.

[ardcarp]

On Radio 4 at the moment:

Professor David Cannadine argues that history has been wrong to categorise people according to their civilisation.

Far from belonging to a distinct grouping of this sort, peoples have always been interdependent and what may have looked like boundaries between empires and cultures turn out to be much more porous than we might imagine.

Nor do descriptions of 'we' (the civilised') and 'they' (the barbarians) stand scrutiny.

Cannadine looks at moments in history when these alleged divisions were most pronounced. The 18th century, under the influence of Gibbon's great Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, for example, chose to trace Western civilisation in a straight line back to Greece and Rome, carefully sidestepping the vital influences of the east. The same is true of the story of the Renaissance and of the New World discoveries where so called encounters between civilised and primitive peoples are much more finely nuanced.

Most importantly, the recent incarnation of the Us and Them theory of world divisions, which is enshrined in Samuel Huntington's book The Clash of Civilisations, predicted that the conflicts which would replace the Cold War battle of ideologies would be 21st century battles between the West and Islamic or Confucian 'civilisations'. Cannadine argues that this idea is sweeping, dangerous and wrong.

Did you notice, Jean, that some person on today's programme asserted that the word 'phonetic' comes from the word 'Phoenician'? Erm?

[jean]

No I didn't - I wasn't listening carefully enough!

It does seem clear from the spelling of the the Greek word for sound, ϕωνή with an omega, that it can't be related to Φοῖνιξ a Phoenician.

(Just in case someone had suggested an alternative etymology, I checked the OED. But no, they haven't.)

[kernelbogey]

I think the whole series is brilliant and am surprised by the criticism here.

I have found the energy and erudition of Simon Schama particularly gratifying. He also has a credit as series adviser or some such, so I'd guess he's behind the overall design. He expresses interesting views in a vivid style. David Olusoga is a star performer too. I also like Mary Beard, and find criticism of her appearance tedious and borderline sexist.

I was gripped, and think this is one of the best things ever done by the BBC on tv. One doesn't have to agree with - or even enjoy - all of it to honour the achievement of condensing 4000 years of civilisation into nine hours of watchable television.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have found the energy and erudition of Simon Schama particularly gratifying. He also has a credit as series adviser or some such, so I'd guess he's behind the overall design. He expresses interesting views in a vivid style. David Olusoga is a star performer too. I also like Mary Beard, and find criticism of her appearance tedious and borderline sexist.

I was gripped, and think this is one of the best things ever done by the BBC on tv. One doesn't have to agree with - or even enjoy - all of it to honour the achievement of condensing 4000 years of civilisation into nine hours of watchable television.

One day, the boffins will devise means to keep us all alive for 4000 years, thereby obviating the problem for future generations.

[jean]

...I also like Mary Beard, and find criticism of her appearance tedious and borderline sexist...

Indeed! A A Gill took that to extremes, but none of it is ok really.

[Richard Tarleton]

On Radio 4 at the moment:

Professor David Cannadine argues that history has been wrong to categorise people according to their civilisation.

Right at the end, from Felipe Fernandez Armesto - "civilisations" have mostly gone the way of Tyre and Nineveh, exceeding their resources...the "societies" which have survived are the ones which have lived with what they had, the hunter-gatherers.... (they haven't of course, produced the surpluses with which to finance priests, rulers, artists, semi-permanent buildings....)

[eighthobstruction]

Right at the end, from Felipe Fernandez Armesto - "civilisations" have mostly gone the way of Tyre and Nineveh, exceeding their resources...the "societies" which have survived are the ones which have lived with what they had, the hunter-gatherers.... (they haven't of course, produced the surpluses with which to finance priests, rulers, artists, semi-permanent buildings....)

....and I believe you have read Jared Diamond RT....which says you can only have x many people in a group/large group before many of the norms of those groups fall apart....I have always loved Chinua Achebes: Things Fall Apart.....firstly as a good book but also as a good phrase....bits just fall off eventually....

....enjoyed Prof Cannadine wished it was a series....too short....I don't know/cannot remember the actual academic job titles of the contributors to the programme, but the blend of people and voices made it a good programme.

[Richard Tarleton]

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have always loved Chinua Achebes: Things Fall Apart.....firstly as a good book but also as a good phrase....bits just fall off eventually ...

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

W B Yeats, 1919

[eighthobstruction]

fhg....yes forgot that....didn't know it well enough to have made the connection....

[DracoM]

Cannadine on R4 really worth listening to.

[ardcarp]

Cannadine on R4 really worth listening to.

Yes. I know it's A Sceptic's View, but can't help feeling he was a bit hard on Kenneth Clark today! It is good though that we now recognise that much of Greek mathematics and philosophy reached 'The West' via Islamic scholars.

[kernelbogey]

Although I don't recall this being stated explicitly in the first programme, of course painting, sculpture, architecture are only one aspect of civilisation(s) - or, rather, three aspects - and they are what the series chose, mostly, to address. Of course they work better for television than, say, the law, education or literature!

Btw I take issue with those who mourn the presence of presenters on screen. I have little doubt that the same material, with presenters only as voice(s) over,would make dull television and gain far fewer viewers.