Border Country : The Story of Britain's Lost Middleland

[Lat-Literal]

BBC4 TV

A repeat but so, so, good:

For historian and MP Rory Stewart, the building of Hadrian's Wall was the single most important event in Britain's history. Meeting experts and local people, and drawing on memories from his life in Iraq and Afghanistan, he explores the impact of Rome's occupation and departure, and tells the story of how the powerful new Kingdom of Northumbria was born in Britain's lost Middleland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0404r3t/border-country-the-story-of-britains-lost-middleland-episode-1

(Humanity and astonishing experience - I still think that if we are to have a Conservative PM beyond the current one, etc etc - but he's probably way too sound to be considered).

[Stanfordian]

BBC4 TV

A repeat but so, so, good:

For historian and MP Rory Stewart, the building of Hadrian's Wall was the single most important event in Britain's history. Meeting experts and local people, and drawing on memories from his life in Iraq and Afghanistan, he explores the impact of Rome's occupation and departure, and tells the story of how the powerful new Kingdom of Northumbria was born in Britain's lost Middleland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0404r3t/border-country-the-story-of-britains-lost-middleland-episode-1

(Humanity and astonishing experience - I still think that if we are to have a Conservative PM beyond the current one, etc etc - but he's probably way too sound to be considered).

Lat-Literal

"the building of Hadrian's Wall was the single most important event in Britain's history." That's some claim. An interesting one, of real merit too!

Bigger than the English Civil War. Bigger than the Reformation. Bigger than the Partition of Ireland. Bigger than the Battle of Britain WW2. The first four important events that spring to mind.

Too tired now after watching England v Brazil. So it's off to bed!

[jean]

Fascinating - I missed it first time round.

I knew nothing about Rory Stuart, either. I know a bit more now:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/03/rory-stewart-interview

[ardcarp]

It had an element of The Long View, that excellent Radio 4 programme which seeks to compare recent events/mores with historical counterparts.

[gurnemanz]

I saw it first time round and remember being quite convinced by the points being made. Many borders are put in the "wrong" place by chance. The main differences within Germany re culture, religion, language, mentality, geography (coast/landlocked), Prussia/Bavaria, had been mostly North-South. The East/West Germany border created post Second World War was in a strange place from that point of view.

[Lat-Literal]

Yes - thank you for these posts with which I agree. As he says, borders of this kind are a fairly recent phenomenon in historical terms. This was the first of two episodes. The second to be aired next week will focus on the subsequent emergence of English and Scottish nationalism after Hadrian's Wall - this, quote, "pernicious scar". At root, the premise is that if the mainland excluding Northern Ireland is not one country it is three which, of course, it is but not as it would be naturally. Wales here becomes an extension of Southern England and the Midlands and Northern England and Southern Scotland combine as the Middleland. That might partially address Stanfordian's points - it is no less substantial than the cultural design of this particular chunk of land not as a conscious decision but by virtue of earlier historical development - or it might not. He is partially informed by a personal standpoint - a Scottish man who doesn't want to be an immigrant just because he lives in England. And he is capable of revising his opinion. Having been taken to the Great Wall of China at six, he declared "“once you’ve seen one temple, you’ve seen them all". Now he thinks differently about temples......and walls. The latter are again addressed in "The Marches" (2016):

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/I-still-wake-up-in-the-morning-thinking-about-him-c14feedb-22d9-4718-b00e-2fd82519037f-ds

(To be fair - and to use a footballer's phrase - I don't think the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Hammond, Gove, Leadsom and Rudd are in the same world, let alone ball park!)

[Lat-Literal]

The second episode went out last night and it was equally impressive. Exceptional television, imo.

Rory Stewart will move from the Conservative Party to lead the Middleland Party in the mid 2020s.

This will be the alternative centre for those who (in some cases reluctantly) have accepted Brexit.

It will also quickly be sufficiently credible to become the party of Government in the early 2030s.

nb. I am not saying that it is because his late father was second in command in British intelligence that there has to be a game plan. However, I do sense that this is what might well emerge. Labour will move further left. The Tories will move further right. There will be several people from most parties talking about re-joining the EU but that element will seem to most adrift. The principal focus will be on the regions below the Moray Firth and above the Humber in any presentation of the new Britain. Middle England to the south will be harnessed to it rather than policy geared to that constituency of voters. Bits and pieces of the celtic areas further north and west will naturally fall in. London will still be London and "different".

[ardcarp]

The second episode went out last night and it was equally impressive.

I agree; I learned a lot. Mrs A. wasn't convinced by the 'When I was in Afghanistan' bits and the flashback footage, but I felt it made a valid point.
My only quibble was his need to join in the drystone walling...typical BBC producer at work there.

[Lat-Literal]

I agree; I learned a lot. Mrs A. wasn't convinced by the 'When I was in Afghanistan' bits and the flashback footage, but I felt it made a valid point.
My only quibble was his need to join in the drystone walling...typical BBC producer at work there.

I did modern history.

The Afghanistan etc analogies seemed sensible, if novel, to me.

What is staggering is the sheer number of twists and turns in the development of Britain and in that region in particular. For every few steps forward on civilisation, there were many steps back towards turmoil. All quite alarming in view of the complex situations today. The bad news is that the reversals were long lasting - centuries. The good news is that positive transformation was often achieved in just two generations. I take the point about the waller and other interviews. However, I was watching how he related to those people. It is genuine if slightly clumsy and there is warmth. That element of awkwardness and yet unexpected normality in one so academic is an electoral plus. To be blunt, he isn't the most photogenic of people. Clearly, he cannot remove his social background from his slightly horsey persona. And as one commentator unkindly pointed out he has for a long distance walker almost bandy legs. But as a whole I think he works - the ability to communicate without affectation, the non-muscular yet extraordinary adventure - and has the potential for considerable appeal.

Yes - I am a fan but only because I feel that there is a rare bit of gold here which Britain being Britain isn't seeing yet.

Episode 2 of 2 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b040mkvp

(I think he was a bit "not sure" on Brexit : this is his current position - http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/statement-on-brexit/)

[DracoM]

Fine prog, and, of course, blessed by having as its subject one of the most glorious, most photogenic areas of landscape in UK.

[french frank]

the building of Hadrian's Wall was the single most important event in Britain's history

In modern British history, I suppose that means

[MrGongGong]

I only caught half of the first one
so this might be a bit of a misunderstanding?


He did seem to be suggesting that before Christianity the Northeast of England / Borders was somehow an "uncivilised" and "uncultured" place?
Having recently been to the Viking Ship Museum in Oslo I would maybe think that this isn't quite the case?

BUT
As I said, I haven't watched it all so stand to be corrected

I think he was a bit "not sure" on Brexit : this is his current position

That fence must give him a rather sore bum

[Lat-Literal]

In modern British history, I suppose that means

That's a very good point. I like Neil Oliver. He speaks a lot of sense.

Consequently he must become the Deputy Leader.

I only caught half of the first one
so this might be a bit of a misunderstanding?


He did seem to be suggesting that before Christianity the Northeast of England / Borders was somehow an "uncivilised" and "uncultured" place?
Having recently been to the Viking Ship Museum in Oslo I would maybe think that this isn't quite the case?

BUT
As I said, I haven't watched it all so stand to be corrected

That fence must give him a rather sore bum

Episode 1 is relevant.

When the Romans first came to Britain, they easily conquered - and civilised - Southern England and the Midlands, they half achieved success in the Middleland of Northern England and Southern Scotland and completely failed in the Scottish Highlands. Hadrian's Wall is a sort of symbol of the precarious nature of their presence in the Middleland - the point at which they could say with some certainty that anything south was a part of their European territory. Somewhat arbitrary, it could easily have been a considerable way further north.

When they pulled out, a lot of the civilisation in the Middleland was quickly forgotten - the knowledge of how to build stone buildings, sewage systems and much else - with the area turned into many smaller regions with competing warlords. And not being united or especially adept, that enabled the Angles to sail in. While the latter brought coherence, they were as atheists a bit blasé which meant that it was easy for Irish monks and then monks from Rome to travel in and introduce a more leaned sort of civilisation - reading, writing etc.

So there were two waves of the Romans.

That was how I understood it but people can say if this is a wrong interpretation.