What are you reading now?

[smittims]

I agree entirely. I'm in favour of fairness, justice and equality. What I don't like is discrimination and unfairness masquerading as 'redressing the balance'. I think 'positive discrimination'as it is called, is still discrimination and is still wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right,and the end does not always justify the means.

I haven't read any books by men who seem to hate women,though I admit CP Snow often seems to have a poor opinion of some of them. What I dislike is, as I've said, an arificial imbalance where all the women characters are marevllous and all the men are evil. The better novelists have a more realistic mix in characters of both sexes, Austen and Dickens being particular experts in this.

[french frank]

I agree entirely. I'm in favour of fairness, justice and equality.

In that case, I don't think we've yet reached stalemate in this discussion!

What I don't like is discrimination and unfairness masquerading as 'redressing the balance'. I think 'positive discrimination'as it is called, is still discrimination and is still wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right,and the end does not always justify the means.

This was a point I made in my previous post using the analogy of the pendulum and natural motion. If a pendulum is stationary it hangs straight down by gravity. If it becomes unbalanced it will swing to one side - and stay there. It won't regain balance until it is swung back in the opposite direction beyond the equilibrium position - that point at which (in this context, in the name of fairness, justice and equality) one hopes the pendulum will end up. You cannot, I would claim, say that working to reach an equilibrium point is unnecessary in the same breath as you say you don't like discrimination and unfairness. Since discrimination and unfairness are rife throughout our society, what is your alternative suggestion for improving the situation? If you tell a 40-year-old man or woman who, for whatever reason, gender, sexuality, skin colour, has suffered discrimination for most of their lives that they should just wait patiently and maybe in years to come, everything will naturally come right - who knows? They may even shout at you or write novels about it.

I haven't read any books by men who seem to hate women,though I admit CP Snow often seems to have a poor opinion of some of them. What I dislike is, as I've said, an arificial imbalance where all the women characters are marevllous and all the men are evil. The better novelists have a more realistic mix in characters of both sexes, Austen and Dickens being particular experts in this.

Well there are various aspects to fiction, prompted by your mention of CP Snow. Do we know what point he was making? Is he the misogynist or is he depicting misogyny? I've read several of his novels and don't remember (but it was 50 years ago) bristling over his portrayal of women, though it was a largely male-dominated world (The Masters,The New Men). Also, I asked for examples of, I will now clarify further, novels where 'all the women characters are marvellous and all the men are evil'? I wonder why on earth you choose to read them? I have to confess I get irritated by people 'batting on' about certain social aspects and think, "Oh, why don't you just shut up?" Then I think: "Well, all I mean is that the issue is not important to me." The lesson is that it is important to others and if they end up metaphorically shouting and stamping their feet it's because society doesn't care and isn't listening.

[Petrushka]

An interesting discussion between FF and smittims. Both make very valid points and because I can agree with both I don't think you are as far apart as might at first seem the case.

I would mention that I hardly ever read books by women nowadays whereas at one time I would have been completely indifferent as to the author's gender. I've more or less stopped scanning the new fiction releases in emails from Waterstones because of the deluge of books clearly, from the publicity blurbs, written by women for women. This kind of polarisation never used to be the case and, yes, I do think that it's a mirror of our society. Bookwise, it's a complete turn-off.

As a corrective to the above, I like the look of Intermezzo, a new book by Sally Rooney which concentrates on the fortunes of two very different brothers following the death of their father. Has anyone read it?

[Pulcinella]

An interesting discussion between FF and smittims. Both make very valid points and because I can agree with both I don't think you are as far apart as might at first seem the case.

I would mention that I hardly ever read books by women nowadays whereas at one time I would have been completely indifferent as to the author's gender. I've more or less stopped scanning the new fiction releases in emails from Waterstones because of the deluge of books clearly, from the publicity blurbs, written by women for women. This kind of polarisation never used to be the case and, yes, I do think that it's a mirror of our society. Bookwise, it's a complete turn-off.

As a corrective to the above, I like the look of Intermezzo, a new book by Sally Rooney which concentrates on the fortunes of two very different brothers following the death of their father. Has anyone read it?

The turn-off for me is mention of details such as Veronica's lovely cashmere sweater: and I fear that these occur much more frequently in books written by women. Kate Mosse is a particular culprit imho.

[french frank]

The turn-off for me is mention of details such as Veronica's lovely cashmere sweater: and I fear that these occur much more frequently in books written by women. Kate Mosse is a particular culprit imho.

I'm not such a voracious reader as some people here (how do you find time to read so many books and listen to so much music - do you do it at the same time? ). On the whole I don't read modern novels at all - there is too much great literature that I'll never read once, and too many I'd like to read again but don't find time). If I read a review or hear about a new novel that interests me, I do a bit more research first before getting it.

There may be a genre of 'women's lit' written just for women but that's too grotesque to equate with 'feminism' and I wouldn't bother with it. I can't understand why anyone, still less a man, would want to read them.

[gradus]

A book that I think every Boarder would enjoy, The Orchestra Speaks by Bernard Shore one time principal Violist with the BBCSO. Strongly recommended for its candour and first hand accounts of the leading conductors of his day. I haven't come across a modern day equivalent.

[Petrushka]

I'm not such a voracious reader as some people here (how do you find time to read so many books and listen to so much music - do you do it at the same time? ).

There was a time when I could read a standard book of, say, 250 pages in a day or two. Now, with so many other competing interests, I'm lucky to read that same book in three weeks. At the age of 70 with a huge 'to be read' pile and many I want to read again plus those I'm stupidly still buying, I'm starting to feel a rising sense of panic.

I've always been a 'slow' reader, relishing the journey on which the author takes me and most definitely not listening to music, or doing anything else, at the same time.

I'd fondly hoped that retirement would have given me the time to read but it just hasn't happened that way and I'm feeling that time isn't on my side!

[smittims]

Hi, gradus, just to step aside from the other debate to answer your post, I recommend Chords and Discords by Malcolm Tillis who was a viola player in the Halle orchestra in the 1950s (lucky man, he spent years sitting next to the delightful Rachel Godlee!) . Although it's not 'recent' it is at least 20 years further forward than Bernard Shore's book,which I think dates from the 1930s in the BBC Symphony Orhcestra. There's also a book by Richard Temple Savage who for many years played bass clarinet in the LPO and later, I think , the Philharmonia, called A voice from the pit.

[smittims]

Hi, ff, I think you raise a number of points in your longer post above which I think go beyond the discussion about 'women's books'. In my experience the problem of relations between men and women is getting worse and has many aspects; If we're to give it the space it needs we'd need a new thread, and I'd have to say some things which are regarded as 'politically-incorrect' (i.e things men aren't allowed to say). So I've tried to stick only to my original point here. However, I will try to answer your questions.

I think your analogy of a pendulum is a little misleading in that a pendulum has to swing over to the other side as part of the process of reaching equilibrium. This doesn't have to happen in the matter of rectifying injustice or inequality. Education is the best solution. Admittedly it's a long-term option. As with vandalism and selfishness, we need to be educating the children who will be the grandparents of the people we hope will benefit. In the short termof course we may have to resort to legislation, but it must be fair, or it will be resented and lead to a backlash. .

I don't think Snow was a misogynist. He did write convincingly about women, but they happen mostly to be not very good women; maybe that was his experience! And to balance that, I'd praise Deborah Moggach as a female writer who definitely isn't anti-male. Both her male and female characters have faults and this makes her books more credible than those of the other writers I mentioned.

And why did I bother to read them? Well, as Thomas Hardy (now there's a man who did I think write about strong women, but fairly ) said 'If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst'. I wouldn't criticise a book I hadn't read. I believe these books contribute to the widening gap I mentioned at the start of this post, and maybe even partially provoke the anti-feminist backlash which is only going to get worse unless the whole topic is discussed openly and honestly with both sides admitting their faults. I fear this will not happen in my lifetime.

[french frank]

I think your analogy of a pendulum is a little misleading in that a pendulum has to swing over to the other side as part of the process of reaching equilibrium. This doesn't have to happen in the matter of rectifying injustice or inequality. Education is the best solution. Admittedly it's a long-term option.

My argument was that it does have to happen that way as a matter of natural science. The pendulum must be yanked back the other way to establish the momentum which will eventually end up at the equilibrium point. Your education solution is not a complete one and telling the aggrieved, discriminated against and oppressed (that isn't of course confined to women!) that education is the long-term solution if they can only wait doesn't really cut the mustard.

And why did I bother to read them? Well, as Thomas Hardy (now there's a man who did I think write about strong women, but fairly ) said 'If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst'. I wouldn't criticise a book I hadn't read.

But on motivation: why do people read novels? They are fictions. If I read the blurb to a book in which it was clear that all the women were marvellous and all the men evil, I wouldn't read it - as fiction: I might read it for sociological reasons if it was a research area or author (Hitler, say, or Ostrovsky) who interested me for other reasons. In your comments I get the whiff of straw men. Just as a suggestion that Breakfast on R3 should have full-length works as well as snippets is portrayed as people wanting Bruckner symphonies every morning, so there are these feminist novels depicting marvellous women and evil men. But these may just be bad novels.

I believe these books contribute to the widening gap I mentioned at the start of this post, and maybe even partially provoke the anti-feminist backlash

That might happen when one or both sides take up extremist attitudes: men are evil, feminists are screeching harridans. At its root I would see feminism itself as rational and justified: how it's pursued depends on its pursuers!

which is only going to get worse unless the whole topic is discussed openly and honestly with both sides admitting their faults.

I don't think that it's either 'men' or 'women', as such, who have 'faults'. A society marked by discrimination and inequality is at fault, not men and women. In that sense I don't think that fiction - or call it art - will change it.

[smittims]

Clearly we are at cross-purposes about the pendulum. Yes , I agree that a pendulum has to swing both ways, but justice doesn't. In other words, I was saying that I don't think your metaphor applies to the original point I raised.

I was not attempting to right the wrongs of world society, but simply saying I dislike this trend in women's fiction, because I think it is misleading the large number of women who read these books and then go and vote, or preach this doctrine to their children. You seem again to want to widen the debate into a general discussion about the problems of feminism and maybe even that of disposessed people worldwide. . As I said, if I were to respond to that, I should have to do so at some length and mention a lot of things which go beyond the scope of this thread ; and I think that's not a good idea .

I'm sure we both know that, although novels are fiction, they can contain truths. It is therefore important that novelists don't abuse their responsibilty not to mislead the reader into thinking that the novel embodies truth when in fact it is propaganda. If they do this I have right to criticise it; that is all I was doing. They are indeed bad novels. But bad novels can influence people for the worse.

Sadly, we live in an age of extremism. Extremists tend to be more vocal, and hence more potentially-influencial. I know there are many moderate, reasonable feminists, but they don't get the attention secured by the men-hating extremists who are taking over the movement and giving it a bad name by provoking extremist male reaction. No-one will come out of that well. It's time to moderate the atmosphere, and exposing the hypocrisy of misleading literature is, I think, one way of helping this.

[french frank]

Clearly we are at cross-purposes about the pendulum.

Chapter 19 will follow

[french frank]

Clearly we are at cross-purposes about the pendulum. Yes , I agree that a pendulum has to swing both ways, but justice doesn't. In other words, I was saying that I don't think your metaphor applies to the original point I raised.

I'm not sure that we're at cross purposes but we see the situation from a different perspective. The pendulum analogy doesn't refer to justice per se. Justice, if you like, is the goal.The question is how to achieve it, how the status quo may be changed.

I was not attempting to right the wrongs of world society, but simply saying I dislike this trend in women's fiction, because I think it is misleading the large number of women who read these books and then go and vote, or preach this doctrine to their children.

So, cutting to the chase: I'm still waiting for some concrete examples from this literature which you feel so strongly about and which you feel will have such a pernicious influence on its readers. I ask from a position of ignorance since I don't come across books of this kind so it would help to know what you're talking about.

[smittims]

'The pendulum analogy doesn't refer to justice per se'.

Good. That's what I was trying to say. I take it we've dealt with that point now!


'I'm still waiting for some concrete examples '.

I think this is going too far. I can't do your homework for you. I don't have the books to hand and I can't recall the exact words. But I do have a very clear memory of reading many, many anti-male sexist remarks, sentences and paragraphs thown out as if they were undisputed facts, remarks which if said by a man about women would quite righly be decried as sexist; I've also looked through many other books of this genre and seen enought to indicate that it is a general trend. . If these authors want to see an end to sexism, a move I would heartily welcome having suffred from it in the past,then they really must stop practising it themselves. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's all I'm saying.

[french frank]

'I think this is going too far. I can't do your homework for you. I don't have the books to hand and I can't recall the exact words. But I do have a very clear memory of reading many, many anti-male sexist remarks, sentences and paragraphs thown out as if they were undisputed facts, remarks which if said by a man about women would quite righly be decried as sexist; I've also looked through many other books of this genre and seen enought to indicate that it is a general trend.

With respect, I don't think I should have to do my 'homework' to discover what evidence you have for making the assertions you do. What I wanted to establish was whether there was indeed an entire genre of novels devoted to portrayals of marvellous women and evil men &c. One writer perhaps? One novel? They would be a small start but without concrete evidence I don't feel there is a case to respond to. I could say that if your clear memory is entirely accurate, I’m inclined to agree with you, but I remain unconvinced.