Mallarmé

[Mandryka]

I've been really enjoying the ptys sonnet and I'm wondering what to explore next. I love that bit where there's a fiery fight with unicorns and a nymph - and then the seven stars appear. Such a wonderful evocation of the feelings of a lover alone after torrid sex. At least, that's what I think he's doing.

Ses purs ongles très-haut dédiant leur onyx,
L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore,
Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix
Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore

Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx,
Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore,
(Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx
Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.)

Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or
Agonise selon peut-être le décor
Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe,

Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor
Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe
De scintillations sitôt le septuor.

Oh - I've just bought the Audible edition of Mallarmé's favourite novel, Huysmans's De Rebours (you should hear how Alexa pronounces the title!)

[french frank]

Apparently Mallarmé said that he had done a bit of asking around to establish whether the word 'ptyx' actually existed and 'on m'assure' that it didn't exist in any language. This gave it the charme of a word created with no meaning by the 'magic of rhyme', to add another line ending in -yx. His earlier outing on the same theme for comparison:

La Nuit approbatrice allume les onyx
De ses ongles au pur Crime, lampadophore,
Du Soir aboli par le vespéral Phoenix
De qui la cendre n’a de cinéraire amphore

Sur des consoles, en le noir Salon: nul ptyx,
Insolite vaisseau d’inanité sonore,
Car le Maître est allé puiser de l’eau du Styx
Avec tous ses objets dont le Rêve s’honore.

Et selon la croisée au Nord vacante, un or
Néfaste incite pour son beau cadre une rixe
Faite d’un dieu que croit emporter une nixe

En l’obscurcissement de la glace, décor
De l’absence, sinon que sur la glace encor
De scintillations le septuor se fixe.

[Mandryka]

La Nuit approbatrice is easier to understand - apparently Mallarmé said it was a "sonnet nul", but revised it to Ses purs ongles.

[french frank]

La Nuit approbatrice is easier to understand - apparently Mallarmé said it was a "sonnet nul", but revised it to Ses purs ongles.

Yes, with the Symbolists it's not easy to decide whether the wording - easy enough to grasp - is supposed to mean anything at all. The words/sounds have their associations which will be different for each reader, so the poem 'means' what you think it means. Mallarmé presumably had something in mind himself but that wasn't something he wanted to communicate to the reader. I looked up Hermeticism on Wikipedia and once established it wasn't the religiouc connotations I was interested in, the article was quite useful.

[Serial_Apologist]

French is such a deliciously sensuous language by virtue of its euphony, it just seems so well suited to making up new words to conjure feelings. I've obliquely alluded to this in coincidentally writing about Wagner and Debussy, which has relevance here, maybe, in comparing effectiveness in different languages to convey emotions of various sorts. It cannot surely be accidental that the more sensuous of the Latin-derived languages, perhaps French and Italian most of all, are universally regarded the best to express amorous and erotic feelings and moods by way of a sort of onomatopoeic mush which led to Symbolism - whereas the more gutteral German and Dutch languages better suited to convey the baser and more physical produced Expressionism? The contribution of the English language to forming our national temperament (alongside climate) would seem to come from both sources - "we" seem better at devising new meanings-nuanced words for ironic intellectualised purposes more than conveying sensuality - which, when our writers try it, too often comes across as pretentiousness and self-debunking. Dutch baseness finds its nearest British equivalence in double-entendres - A British speciality, French examples of which I know not.. of.. although I was told there is a French term for "pun": "Jeu de mot"

[french frank]

Dutch baseness finds its nearest British equivalence in double-entendres - A British speciality, French examples of which I know not.. of.. although I was told there is a French term for "pun": "Jeu de mot"

Compared with Duchamps LHOOQ added to his moustachioed Mona Lisa, the Monnier/Hugo couplet is the height of French elegance, rather than low wit:

Gal, amant de la reine, alla, tour magnanime,
Galamment de l'arène à la Tour Magne à Nîme(s).

Back to Ses purs ongles, there's 12-page critique of the poem on jstor, written I think around the 1950s with literal translations of the two versions. It's quite clear what the words mean, but what is the poem about?

[Mandryka]

Compared with Duchamps LHOOQ added to his moustachioed Mona Lisa, the Monnier/Hugo couplet is the height of French elegance, rather than low wit:

Gal, amant de la reine, alla, tour magnanime,
Galamment de l'arène à la Tour Magne à Nîme(s).

Back to Ses purs ongles, there's 12-page critique of the poem on jstor, written I think around the 1950s with literal translations of the two versions. It's quite clear what the words mean, but what is the poem about?

It's about the feelings of a lover when her beloved has left her, after they have made love..

[Pulcinella]

Investigating my ignorance, I wondered what settings of Mallarmé there might be (other than Ravel's) and found only one more, which I hadn't realised: Boulez' Pli selon pli.

Any reason why there aren't more?

[Mandryka]

Investigating my ignorance, I wondered what settings of Mallarmé there might be (other than Ravel's) and found only one more, which I hadn't realised: Boulez' Pli selon pli.

Any reason why there aren't more?

Presumably they don't set it because they haven't got a scooby what it means! Mind you, that doesn't stop them setting Beckett.

Someone once said to me Boulez was interested in Mallarmé partly because he saw a relation between the form of Un coup de dès and the sort of indeterminacy he explored in the 3rd piano sonata. But I'm not totally sure if that's true or even if it makes sense.

This may be relevant

https://books.openedition.org/pur/183527

[Roslynmuse]

I was surprised to see how many Mallarmé settings are listed on Liedernet.

I knew the Ravel and Debussy and Boulez (and Ravel's early Sainte); and there is also a bizarre - spoof - setting of Placet futile by Poulenc in Le gendarme incompris, but I don't recognize many of the others listed here!

[Serial_Apologist]

Here are Debussy's marvellously elusive three settings of Mallarmé, composed in 1913, just prior to Ravel's four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlRtD1LC8vQ

And the following is a recorded lecture on the same, in which EVERYTHING IS MADE CLEAR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8vTvTopGU

[Mandryka]

Claude Ballif's setting of Un coup de dês (rather nice! Mystical in a sort of late Nono way - must be effective in the concert hall.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=truJQBvvs_Y

And Henri Sauguet has set a couple of Mallarmé's poems - on this CD, which is on Spotify

https://www.discogs.com/release/12962985-Henri-Sauguet-Jean-François-Gardeil-Billy-Eidi-Mélodies?srsltid=AfmBOoqVALUzdAblAfEnfhxhMxodIQSBI frHn5p9r4OU8DXlyMktxbg3