Don't Stop the Music - Channel 4

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for that explanation, Alpie.

[MrGongGong]

Calling the old O level "musicology" is a bit of a joke
BUT it makes the point that music wasn't considered a practical subject
what we did loose was critical listening as part of understanding music
BUT
what so many of these things seem to miss is the purpose of school in the first place !

Surely school is the one place where you, as a child, will encounter things you wouldn't find elsewhere ?

I frequently work with A level students who could roughly be divided into 2 groups

1: Those who play orchestral instruments and take part in youth orchestras etc
2: Those who play guitar and other "rock/pop" instruments and form bands etc

I would always try to make it so that those in group 1 do plenty of improvisation, devising, electronics etc
and those from group 2 do plenty of exposure to musics that they would otherwise have no knowledge of

When I did O level music I sang in a church choir, had piano lessons etc It taught me very little and was delivered in a very dull way.
What does count is the enthusiasm and expertise of those working with children, the best music teachers I have met (and the best professional musicians .... Tony Pappano for example) communicate passion and enthusiasm.

That is quite correct. O-level was never about musicology - just the nuts and bolts needed for an in-depth understanding of music.

The problem is that it wasn't an understanding of MUSIC, it was an understanding of a very small amount of the worlds musics.

[Mary Chambers]

The problem is that it wasn't an understanding of MUSIC, it was an understanding of a very small amount of the worlds musics.

Perhaps there should be a GCSE (or whatever) in Western Classical Music, so that children at least learn the basics of a tradition which they have inherited. 'The worlds musics' (sic) is rather a lot for one exam.

[MrGongGong]

Perhaps there should be a GCSE (or whatever) in Western Classical Music, so that children at least learn the basics of a tradition which they have inherited. 'The worlds musics' (sic) is rather a lot for one exam.

Terrible idea IMV
What we need is for children to be as enthusiastic about MUSIC as a global phenomenon as Debussy, Britten and Mozart were

The 'basics' of the inherited tradition includes music from many places outside Europe (a cursory listen to the EMS would reinforce this as does listening to the music of the three composers mentioned)

[teamsaint]

Perhaps there should be a GCSE (or whatever) in Western Classical Music, so that children at least learn the basics of a tradition which they have inherited. 'The worlds musics' (sic) is rather a lot for one exam.

Like many round here , I did an O level in Western Classical music.

It was dreadfully dull, an afterthought to the "serious" subjects, and It ruined Mendelssohn #4 for me.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When I did O level music I sang in a church choir, had piano lessons etc It taught me very little and was delivered in a very dull way.

I think this may have coloured your thinking, unsurprisingly. I was luckier. My school, piano and oboe teachers were all good - even the young teacher whose harmony lessons were so strict that we called her "Annie" after Annie Warburton.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps there should be a GCSE (or whatever) in Western Classical Music, so that children at least learn the basics of a tradition which they have inherited. 'The worlds musics' (sic) is rather a lot for one exam.

Well - no more than is "History" or "Geography" or "Mathematics". By the time people come to choose their Examination subjects (ten years after they start school), they should have already been exposed to a wide range of the world's Musics. Then, in the "important" Exams, they can start to choose which areas in which they would like to "specialize", within the context of an "whole"-Musics education. Education (not just in Music) should be about more than just those people who choose to study it at GCSE and higher- even if in practice it is often little more than preparing for Exams.

[MrGongGong]

I think this may have coloured your thinking, unsurprisingly. I was luckier. My school, piano and oboe teachers were all good - even the young teacher whose harmony lessons were so strict that we called her "Annie" after Annie Warburton.

It probably did.
But a music education that ignores Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music, music pre 1700 or after 1900 would be rather lacking indeed.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It probably did.
But a music education that ignores Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music, music pre 1700 or after 1900 would be rather lacking indeed.

I thought we were talking about schools, not the BBC.

[Mary Chambers]

Terrible idea IMV
What we need is for children to be as enthusiastic about MUSIC as a global phenomenon as Debussy, Britten and Mozart were

The 'basics' of the inherited tradition includes music from many places outside Europe (a cursory listen to the EMS would reinforce this as does listening to the music of the three composers mentioned)

I am aware of all that, and I wasn't being entirely serious. For some reason I am always intensely irritable when people use the word 'musics'.

[MrGongGong]

I am aware of all that, and I wasn't being entirely serious. For some reason I am always intensely irritable when people use the word 'musics'.

I find it very useful
like the word Cheeses meaning different types
When people use the word "Music" they don't usually mean different types of music

Your joke seems to have caught on though

http://www.protectmusiceducation.org/beyond1900.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exclusive-exam-reforms-give-dead-white-germans-lead-on-the-classical-music-syllabus-9732478.html

[Mary Chambers]

Your joke seems to have caught on though

It wasn't a joke. It just wasn't entirely serious.

[french frank]

But a music education that ignores Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music, music pre 1700 or after 1900 would be rather lacking indeed.

But that's a bit like saying a literary education that didn't include, Latin, ancient Greek, German, Italian, Spanish French, English literatures &c &c would be rather lacking indeed. Or a modern languages course that didn't include ... (and so on). Even at university level students only scratch the surface of 'languages' 'literature'; even a French undergraduate student only scratches the surface of French literature. The more breadth, the more superficiality.

How long do you have to study to cover 'Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music' in any useful way? (I leave out 'music pre 1700 or after 1900', since the term classical music in its general sense includes music before 1700 and after 1900).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

How long do you have to study to cover 'Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music' in any useful way?

Depends how early you start - not unlike learning an instrument.

And "the more breadth, the more superficiality" - this is no more (nor, if you like, "no less") true of History. We're moving away from "Music in Schools" and onto lifelong learning - forty years after I began my "O"-Level History, I still watch every history programme I can, and my book collection has over a hundred books on various historical subjects: it is "broad" and undoubtably "superficial" from the point of view of a professional historian. But schools aren't, and education isn't, just about producing professionals; it includes (or should) encouraging curiosity and instilling a lifelong eagerness to continue finding out about stuff.

[french frank]

We're moving away from "Music in Schools" and onto lifelong learning

That's right. But the question is - do you start children off studying a little bit of everything ('Jazz, Non-Western musics, Improvisation, composition, Electronic music, rock music') or do you limit it to a smaller number of areas? And if so, which ones?