The surprise of poetry

[marthe]

"Slack" puts me in mind of the sort of childhood my husband had growing up in the north of England during the 50s and 60s. He remebers the coal fire that warmed the front room of his childhood home and provided hot water for baths and washing. Now, he chops and stacks wood (as in the Robert Frost poem) to burn in our fireplaces. He is truly the "keeper of the flame" in a way that I am not.

[Eudaimonia]

Slack was put on the fire to keep it burning longer, ideal for poorer folk because it was cheaper and it extended the life of the fire.

Hm, thanks. Maybe there's some cathartic symbolism in what it looks like when you pour it on--does the fire quench down at once? Does it flare up before it tamps down to a simmer? Not sure that it matters, but it could shed some light on the transition from the descriptive symbolism of the bag.

I don't see it as tragic or pitiful. [...] It's a bit mournful and evokes poverty though.

I'm sure my interpretation must be prejudiced by childhood visits to bleak, hard-bitten rural farm-dwelling relatives. I couldn't get out of there fast enough..."pity and fear" indeed!

Doesn't Aristotle's meaning imply the artificial ridding oneself of uncomfortable emotions. You can engage with them safely ('enjoy' them?) because they are no more 'real' than the drama.

Well, Aristotle also thought that catharsis was about bringing balance to the four humours (blood, phlegm, yellow bile and black bile). Excessive emotion was associated with an excess of black bile, so seeing a tragedy brings about a reduction of this humour, since emotions have a physiological component. As someone once wrote:

"Because dramatic performances end, whereas life goes on, we can let go of the tension that builds during a dramatic performance in a way that we often cannot let go of the tension that builds up over the course of our lives. Because we can let go of it, the emotional intensity of art deepens us, whereas emotional intensity in life often just hardens us. However, if this process of catharsis that allows us to experience powerful emotions and then let them go is the ultimate purpose of art, then art becomes the equivalent of therapy."

[french frank]

Maybe there's some cathartic symbolism in what it looks like when you pour it on--does the fire quench down at once? Does it flare up before it tamps down to a simmer?

I seem to remember that we actually poured water on to our bucket of (nutty) slack. So yes, it damped down at once, sizzling slightly. I supposed you could overdo it and put the fire out ...

Just another point on poetry (sort of) as I'm not very good at interpreting imaginative images: in South Wind there is mention of the 'wine-coloured sea', which is a Homeric image. But I've never quite gathered what it was supposed to convey. Any suggestions here?

[vinteuil]

in South Wind there is mention of the 'wine-coloured sea', which is a Homeric image. But I've never quite gathered what it was supposed to convey. Any suggestions here?

French Frank - I found the wiki page on "blue" most instructive - and it may help your Homeric query...

"The modern English word blue comes from Middle English bleu or blewe, from Old French bleu, bleve, blöe, a word of Germanic origin (Frankish or possibly Old High German blāo, "blue"). Bleu replaced Old English blāw "blue" and blǣwen "light blue". The root of all these variations is Proto-Germanic blǣwaz, from Proto-Indo-European *bhlāw-, *bhlēw- "light-coloured, yellow, grey, blue", from *bhel- "to shine, be light or bright", also the root of Old Norse blār and the modern Icelandic blár, and the Scandinavian word blå, which can also refer to other non blue colours. A Scots and Scottish English word for "blue-grey" is blae, from the Middle English bla ("dark blue", from Old Norse blār). Also related is the English word blee meaning "colour, complexion". Ancient Greek lacked a word for blue and Homer called the colour of the sea "wine dark", except that the word kyanos (cyan) was used for dark blue enamel. As a curiosity, blue is thought to be cognate with blond, blank and black through the Germanic word. Through a Proto-Indo-European root, it is also linked with Latin flavus ("yellow"; see flavescent and flavine), with Greek phalos (white), French blanc (white, blank) (borrowed from Old Frankish), and with Russian белый, belyi ("white," see beluga), and Welsh blawr (grey) all of which derive (according to the American Heritage Dictionary) from the Proto-Indo-European root *bhel- meaning "to shine, flash or burn", (more specifically the word bhle-was, which meant light coloured, blue, blond, or yellow), whence came the names of various bright colours, and that of colour black from a derivation meaning "burnt" (other words derived from the root *bhel- include bleach, bleak, blind, blink, blank, blush, blaze, flame, fulminate, flagrant and phlegm).

In the English language, blue may refer to the feeling of sadness. "He was feeling blue". This is because blue was related to rain, or storms, and in Greek mythology, the god Zeus would make rain when he was sad (crying), and a storm when he was angry. Kyanos was a name used in Ancient Greek to refer to dark blue tile (in English it means blue-green or cyan). The phrase "feeling blue" is linked also to a custom among many old deepwater sailing ships. If the ship lost the captain or any of the officers during its voyage, she would fly blue flags and have a blue band painted along her entire hull when returning to home port.

Many languages do not have separate terms for blue and or green, instead using a cover term for both (when the issue is discussed in linguistics, this cover term is sometimes called grue in English)."

[vinteuil]

for Homeric colours -

https://www.cooper.edu/classes/art/h...g/Rebecca.html 1999

[vinteuil]

... and it's worth googling

ancient greek color vision

for an interesting article (serendip / Bryn Mawr )

[french frank]

Phew, well, that seems like a pretty comprehensive reply. Thank you

I had some familiarity with colour categories and must read up on it again (colours related to blue/flavus particularly interesting). Interesting too that the notion of 'chromatic' colour is late, and that surface characteristics (shiny &c.) were also considered types of 'colour'.

[tony yyy]

Just another point on poetry (sort of) as I'm not very good at interpreting imaginative images: in South Wind there is mention of the 'wine-coloured sea', which is a Homeric image. But I've never quite gathered what it was supposed to convey. Any suggestions here?

I've a vague feeling that we discussed something like this on the old boards. There's a two volume study by Maxwell-Stuart which devotes one volume to γλαυκός and the other to another word, I've forgotten which. In passing, he discussed οἶνοψ. I haven't read it all (some of it's available on Google Books) and have forgotten most of what I did read, but I think one of his suggestions was that the -οψ bit has been neglected and it would be better translated as wine-eyed rather than wine-dark, i.e. it might have some suggestion of drunkenness - being unsteady and rather cross, perhaps. I don't how well regarded his ideas are.

[french frank]

In passing, he discussed . I haven't read it all (some of it's available on Google Books) and have forgotten most of what I did read, but I think one of his suggestions was that the -οψ bit has been neglected

It ties up with the view that (vague sense) 'colour' can be separate from 'chromatic'. I've always, pedantically, focused on the οἶν- rather than the -οψ. Who knows what was going on in the heads of these poets ..?

I've now lost the Douglas reference, dammit, but I'm sure (erm, well, now I'm wondering) that he said 'wine-coloured' rather than 'wine-dark', which is, of course the usual translation.

[french frank]

here's a two volume study by Maxwell-Stuart which devotes one volume to γλαυκός and the other to another word, I've forgotten which.

γλαυκός , of course, might be okay for the sea - but the connection with wine ...

One thing about colour categorisation which I vaguely remember was that, once people felt a need to describe colour, they associated it with natural objects: the sky, the poppy, the cedar tree &c.

[Eudaimonia]

Maybe we're being a little prejudiced here? After all, the sea isn't always blue...

Bering Sea at Sunset

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bering_Sea_sunset_-_NOAA.jpg

"Wine dark" indeed.

[french frank]

Maybe we're being a little prejudiced here? After all, the sea isn't always blue...

Then there's the Red Sea ...

[PatrickOD]

..... not to mention the Lake of Shadows,

http://www.fotopedia.com/items/flickr-242263902

an intoxicating stretch of water, full of history and wild life, and a dangerous hazard where I play golf.

[french frank]

It's quite interesting that the photos don't really capture a wine/burgundy colour. The only ones I located were unnatural and had clearly been doctored. It rather suggests that a quality other than colour was being evoked. Perhaps the clear sparkle or glitter of the sea at night?

[tony yyy]

Isn't Homer's sea wine-dark when it's rough or stormy? It can also be violet or grey or probably other colours as well.