Radio 4: Richard Wagner: Power, Sex & Revolution (Tues April 30)

[Thropplenoggin]

(Part 1 of 2) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4g74

"Mention his name and images flicker of dwarves, flying maidens, magic swords and bronze breast-plates, all of it served in vast portions to test stamina of audience and singers alike. But what's really going on in Wagner?Two hundred years after the composer's birth, Paul Mason takes a fresh look at the man whose music has gripped him for as long as he can remember. The megalithic fifteen hours of The Ring cycle dominate our view of Wagner, but behind it lies a man whose complex personality leaves us still struggling to understand him. He was a revolutionary, not just in music but also in politics, even finding himself a wanted man in exile. He was determined to transform drama into something which would be a powerful force in society, and a man driven by ambition to revitalise a Germany which he saw as critically unwell. And there were the darker instincts, not least an attitude to racial purity which leaves deep questions about his validity as an artist.In the first programme Mason peers into the murky depths of a tale of desire and obsession. 'Tristan and Isolde' takes us deep into the mind of its composer, a man with powerful sexual urges of his own, and whose approach to life was totally reshaped by his discovery of one of the greatest philosophers of his age. We hear from those who have sung and studied the work, and also a man so captivated by the power of opera, and Wagner in particular, that he built his own opera house in which to stage these giant and ever-challenging works."

[Mr Pee]

Thanks for that, Throp. Sounds worth a listen. Not sure sure that his racial attitudes raise questions about his validity as an artist though- they raise questions about his racial attitudes. But that's a whole new thread!!

[amateur51]

Thanks for that, Throp. Sounds worth a listen. Not sure sure that his racial attitudes raise questions about his validity as an artist though- they raise questions about his racial attitudes. But that's a whole new thread!!

Always after the bigger picture, eh Mr Pee?!

[Mr Pee]

If you wish to debate the question, feel free. Wagner's "validity as an artist" is not in question, IMV- what might be in question is to what extent the nature of his art was influenced by his beliefs and attitudes. But to my ears, the validity of his musical genius is there for all to see.

[Beef Oven]

If you wish to debate the question, feel free. Wagner's "validity as an artist" is not in question, IMV- what might be in question is to what extent the nature of his art was influenced by his beliefs and attitudes. But to my ears, the validity of his musical genius is there for all to see.

What are the criteria for a valid artist?

[Mr Pee]

What are the criteria for a valid artist?

Well that must be highly subjective, depending on one's own tastes. There are plenty of modern composers whom I do not consider to be remotely valid as artists in any meaningful sense.

[richardfinegold]

Thanks for that, Throp. Sounds worth a listen. Not sure sure that his racial attitudes raise questions about his validity as an artist though- they raise questions about his racial attitudes. But that's a whole new thread!!

Agree, totally.

[Thropplenoggin]

Paul Mason gives us a glimpse of his thesis in today's Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013...-love-actually

[Thropplenoggin]

Did anyone listen to these programmes?* If so, what did they think?

*I haven't but intend to listen again on iPlayer.

[amateur51]

Did anyone listen to these programmes?* If so, what did they think?

*I haven't but intend to listen again on iPlayer.

Likewise I'm sure

[Beef Oven]

Well that must be highly subjective, depending on one's own tastes. There are plenty of modern composers whom I do not consider to be remotely valid as artists in any meaningful sense.

My question was supposed to be rhetorical, I was siding with you, but it didn't come across!

I too think the matter is pretty subjective and certainly has nothing to do with political correctness.

If people 'disapprove' of Wagner, that is entirely their own matter. For me, Wagner, Shakespeare, the rules of Association Football and the iPod are some of the greatest things of our species.

[Serial_Apologist]

My question was supposed to be rhetorical, I was siding with you, but it didn't come across!

I too think the matter is pretty subjective and certainly has nothing to do with political correctness.

If people 'disapprove' of Wagner, that is entirely their own matter. For me, Wagner, Shakespeare, the rules of Association Football and the iPod are some of the greatest things of our species.

You forgot beer

[Beef Oven]

You forgot beer

[Belgrove]

Mason does not add anything substantive to what has already been said or written on Wagner, but neither was it a trivial programme. I doubt if there are any revelations to be gleaned for those knowledgable folk on these boards, but any discussion on or around music is welcome.

Mason regards The Ring as a 'broken backed' work because, as far as I understood his argument, it is rooted in myth and concerned with power politics rather than addressing the human condition, which he claims is more profoundly treated in the last three stand-alone works. Myth is a vehicle (nevertheless used in Tristan and Parsifal) in which universal issues can be explored in a timeless setting. All cultures have used this as a technique for investigation and reflection on society. There is enough substance in The Ring for it to be (and want to be) performed with fresh perspectives and insights for as long as operas continue to be staged.

The discussion was rooted in the circumstances in which the works were written and their meaning, which is incomplete. What was missing was any mention of the extraordinary sound that Wagner's works make. It was the sound of the music that first drew me into Wagner, with meaning coming later on. It is the sound of the music that still has a intoxicating affect on me, and no other music can cause this. I have heard some say that the music makes them feel physically ill. Why does this music, like no other, cause these extreme responses? The programme was silent on this.

As to the polarization of opinion that Wagner causes, the programme did not distinguish whether this is caused by the sound of the music, the thematic content of the works, or his other writings and utterances. But differentiating between these elements in the case of Wagner is a rather more complicated than for any other cultural figure.

The last programme is broadcast on 7th May.

[DracoM]

< As to the polarization of opinion that Wagner causes, the programme did not distinguish whether this is caused by the sound of the music, the thematic content of the works, or his other writings and utterances. But differentiating between these elements in the case of Wagner is a rather more complicated than for any other cultural figure. >

Well, with deepest respect, actually he did touch on such issues, BUT eschewed discussion in favour of his own interpretation of The Ring as a capitalist critique.

Well, that's the Wagner problem, isn't it? All manner of interpreters seeing different gestalts and then promoting them as the ONLY gestalts. He's not alone in that.

BUT why was this programme NOT on R3??