Jane Austen's Heroines

[Sir Velo]

Mansfield Park

I’m unequivocally ‘for’ Fanny Price and am interested to know why, precisely (with close reference to the text, of course ) others feel differently.

I'm not sure I can give you chapter and verse, but from a personal POV: I don't think it's necessarily a case of either an artistic failure, or a failure on the part of readers, if one no longer responds unequivocally for Fanny Price. I agree with you that FP is held up as an exemplar by JA. However, since the Regency, manners and social attitudes have changed to an almost unrecognisable degree. Hence, the demure, strait-laced heroine who holds steadfastly to some concept of "virtue" seems hopelessly outdated to most modern readers.

Ironically, Fielding (JA's great predecessor) mocked Richardson's eponymous emblem of female virtue, Pamela (or "Virtue Rewarded"), in his Joseph Andrews and that even more scurrilous pamphlet, Shamela, demonstrating that the whole concept of virtue was a mere strategem adopted to win a husband, a fortune, and the good repute of society. One wonders what would Fielding have made of Fanny Price?

[french frank]

Hence, the demure, strait-laced heroine who holds steadfastly to some concept of "virtue" seems hopelessly outdated to most modern readers.

That does seem to me to be a total 'failure of the reader' if s/he reads an early 19th-c. novel with the same critical expectations as if it had been a contemporary one.

FP seemed to me to be not 'priggish' at all (and readers of the day might be supposed to be more familiar with the subject of 'Lovers' Vows' than today's readership). If she is, you write off Edmund, Sir Thomas and even Mary Crawford who felt there were some speeches that should be cut. Fanny was discouraging it because she thought the play would not have been allowed if Sir Thomas had been at home. And indeed they all seemed to feel that - and were right.

Fanny saw though the flirtatious Henry Crawford (who declared he intended to 'make her love me' without any mention of feeling anything for her), and Mary Crawford connived at this treatment of her 'friend' and even tricked her into receiving Crawford's necklace while toying with the title 'Sir Edmund' should Tom Bertram succumb to the serious illness that was worrying his family. Fanny, Edmund and Sir Thomas are the only ones to show any degree of kindness to anyone else - very old-fashioned! It was perfectly okay to deceive Rushworth by flirting and eventually running off with his wife since he was 'stupid'. If Fanny is judgemental, it's only about such matters as the world at the time would have censured. She merely notes the difference between family life at Mansfield and in Portsmouth which is factually true - the chapter describing the chaos in the Price household when she returns is a tour-de-force.

The 'moral' issues (in my view ) are about treating others with kindness and respect, and not being obsessessed (or unscrupulous) with money and social position. Perhaps I like Fanny because she's the only one of the younger generation (perhaps with the exception of William, in his small part) who shows any intelligence

[JFLL]

That does seem to me to be a total 'failure of the reader' if s/he reads an early 19th-c. novel with the same critical expectations as if it had been a contemporary one.

Exactly. Literature (and all art) is partly about opening our minds to what was thought and felt in the past, however differently we see things now. If one only wants to read about people who feel as we do, shouldn't one stick to contemporary novels?

[french frank]

I've also finished Mansfield Park, and I did up my estimation of Fanny a bit in the end.

I pick up this point out of several because it seems to me - how strong the evidence is I'm not quite sure - that JA in the novel consciously shows how attitudes to Fanny change. Whereas none of them is quite so spitefully disdainful of her as Mrs Norris (and who is going to side with her?), it seems to me that several of them come to value her for what she is: Edmund treats her as his confidante and comes to realise that she is worth so much more than that; Crawford, whose intention appeared to be to trifle with her, after several meetings in which he comes to know her better ends up (it it accepted) genuinely falling in love with her; even Sir Thomas, whose kindness stemmed originally from the fact that she was the daughter of his wife's sister, and who expressed his anger when she refused Crawford, had to admit that she had been right in her character assessment of him. (She even becomes noticeably 'prettier' towards the end of the novel: is that psychological in origin, showing how general approval of her increased?)

I guess I have more sympathy with characters who have to struggle to overcome their own faults, and who become wiser for the struggle, such as Emma.

But Fanny has difficulties to overcome.

As an addition to what I said about her disapproval of 'Lovers' Vows: it was that she knew Sir Thomas would disapprove, but I would suggest that she also disapproved of that particular play and how the 'actors' would be called upon to behave and which also held something of an echo of the elopement of Crawford and Maria Rushworth and the dissolute morals which caused the same real life disapproval in Mansfield society.

[Sir Velo]

Exactly. Literature (and all art) is partly about opening our minds to what was thought and felt in the past, however differently we see things now.

Fair point JFLL. However, it's not only our time which has reacted badly to Fanny Price. Jane Austen's own mother wrote that she found FP to be "insipid". Somerset Maugham's quote about Fanny Price as a "little prig" dates back to the early part of the last century. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking that every Victorian was fond of excessive sentimentality or virtue. Wasn't it Wilde who famously said that "one would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the death of Little Nell".

[french frank]

However, it's not only our time which has reacted badly to Fanny Price. Jane Austen's own mother wrote that she found FP to be "insipid". Somerset Maugham's quote about Fanny Price as a "little prig" dates back to the early part of the last century.

Opinion seemed evenly divided, some being 'delighted' with Fanny. Does Maugham's comment have anything to back it up, other than assertion of a personal POV? Or Kingsley Amis's? Otherwise it isn't valuable criticism. 'I don't like that sort of heroine' can't be contested.

[Sir Velo]

Opinion seemed evenly divided, some being 'delighted' with Fanny. Does Maugham's comment have anything to back it up, other than assertion of a personal POV? Or Kingsley Amis's? Otherwise it isn't valuable criticism. 'I don't like that sort of heroine' can't be contested.

One could counter and say do those who approve of FP have anything else to back their view up? OK, JA obviously sympathises with her, but leaving aside authorial intention, what else is there? There's a clear element of sanctimoniousness in her conduct which critics of all periods have recognised.

[french frank]

One could counter and say do those who approve of FP have anything else to back their view up? OK, JA obviously sympathises with her, but leaving aside authorial intention, what else is there? There's a clear element of sanctimoniousness in her conduct which critics of all periods have recognised.

But I have explained my views even if others haven't . I won't agree that she is sanctimonious unless you quote the novel precisely....

As for 'heroines', surely they must come in all varieties or they are merely stereotypes. I've got withdrawal symptoms now I've finished the novel.

I wonder whether the 'problem' for some readers is that the story is more overtly 'moral' than others of JA's novels? I wouldn't equate that with 'sanctimoniousness' on anyone's part.

[JFLL]

Fair point JFLL. However, it's not only our time which has reacted badly to Fanny Price. Jane Austen's own mother wrote that she found FP to be "insipid". Somerset Maugham's quote about Fanny Price as a "little prig" dates back to the early part of the last century. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking that every Victorian was fond of excessive sentimentality or virtue. Wasn't it Wilde who famously said that "one would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the death of Little Nell".

I see your point about contemporary opinion, but I think it’s fairly predictable that Somerset Maugham, a modern sensibility, wouldn’t like Fanny, nor the early Kingsley Amis -- but I wonder if Amis changed his view, as in so many other things, later in life? But surely sentimentality and virtue are quite different things? Sentimentality is a moral and/or literary failing, and I don’t think JA’s depiction of Fanny is at all sentimental, whereas virtue is a neutral attribute of character which can be depicted sentimentally or unsentimentally. Little Nell is a completely different kettle of fish, IMO.

[Sir Velo]

I see your point about contemporary opinion, but I think it’s fairly predictable that Somerset Maugham, a modern sensibility, wouldn’t like Fanny, nor the early Kingsley Amis -- but I wonder if Amis changed his view, as in so many other things, later in life? But surely sentimentality and virtue are quite different things? Sentimentality is a moral and/or literary failing, and I don’t think JA’s depiction of Fanny is at all sentimental, whereas virtue is a neutral attribute of character which can be depicted sentimentally or unsentimentally. Little Nell is a completely different kettle of fish, IMO.

Fair point.

I didn't actually bring Kingsley Amis into the question as it happens! Not sure about Maugham being a modern sensibility. His view dates back almost a century now. Fielding's dismissal of Pamela (another virtuous heroine) is from the 18th century. Jane Austen's mother's view is clearly contemporaneous with the novel's publication.

Leaving that aside, FF asked why readers didn't like FP. I endeavoured to explain that from my POV it is because she is just too good to be true a mon gout. I well appreciate that others will see differently, and that JA's intention was clearly otherwise. But as the question was "why don't you like Fanny Price?", it's difficult not to be subjective. Emma is less perfect, but more endearing.

[richardfinegold]

Indeed. As Somerset Maugham sagely put it: "'I recognise that its heroine is a little prig and its hero a pompous ass".

I always enjoyed reading Maugham.

[richardfinegold]

I pick up this point out of several because it seems to me - how strong the evidence is I'm not quite sure - that JA in the novel consciously shows how attitudes to Fanny change. Whereas none of them is quite so spitefully disdainful of her as Mrs Norris (and who is going to side with her?), it seems to me that several of them come to value her for what she is: Edmund treats her as his confidante and comes to realise that she is worth so much more than that; Crawford, whose intention appeared to be to trifle with her, after several meetings in which he comes to know her better ends up (it it accepted) genuinely falling in love with her; even Sir Thomas, whose kindness stemmed originally from the fact that she was the daughter of his wife's sister, and who expressed his anger when she refused Crawford, had to admit that she had been right in her character assessment of him. (She even becomes noticeably 'prettier' towards the end of the novel: is that psychological in origin, showing how general approval of her increased?)

But Fanny has difficulties to overcome.

As an addition to what I said about her disapproval of 'Lovers' Vows: it was that she knew Sir Thomas would disapprove, but I would suggest that she also disapproved of that particular play and how the 'actors' would be called upon to behave and which also held something of an echo of the elopement of Crawford and Maria Rushworth and the dissolute morals which caused the same real life disapproval in Mansfield society.

Fanny's difficulties are all external. She has been placed in situations which she is disadvantaged. JA's more interesting (to me, if not FF) create their own difficulties. Emma is always attempting to be a match maker, and projecting her own values on to the people whom she would match up. This causes problems, and leads Emma to conclude that she isn't as wise as she thought she is and that she has caused problems for others and herself. She learns from her mistakes and grows as a person.
Fanny Price is unchanged and therefore does not grow.

[Flosshilde]

I won't agree that she is sanctimonious unless you quote the novel precisely....

"Do you agree with Somerset Maugham that Fanny Price is a 'little prig'.? Please quote from the novel and Maugham's writings to support your argument. Write on one side of the paper only"

[vinteuil]

Fanny Price is unchanged and therefore does not grow.

... but the characters in 'Mansfield Park' are tested. Edmund falls very seriously in love with Mary Crawford ; Fanny Price almost succumbs to Henry's genuine attachment, and it is only by means of the deeply moral characters of Fanny and Edmund that they escape the charms of the charming, most charming, Crawfords, who are yet not really worthy of them.

[french frank]

Fanny's difficulties are all external. She has been placed in situations which she is disadvantaged. JA's more interesting (to me, if not FF) create their own difficulties. Emma is always attempting to be a match maker, and projecting her own values on to the people whom she would match up.

Yes, and that particular aspect does seem fundamentally less interesting to me (but I haven't read Emma for some time). It makes her exasperating rather than endearing. I'm not sure why having to overcome one's own faults is more interesting than overcoming the obstacles placed in one's way.

Fanny Price is unchanged and therefore does not grow.

You could also argue that Fanny overcomes her own timidity and nervousness. From being cowed by the company in which she finds herself, as she grows older she is able to resist when she feels she has to, not be drawn in by other characters to do what they want her to, and to face stern criticism for it...

I've just started Persuasion and see signs of Fanny in Anne Elliot - gentle, always giving way to others, treated as unimportant by her family...