By popular demand, a place to talk about language - particularly its development, but not exclusively so. Perhaps this thread could be a useful place for the odd bit of anorakophilia.
To begin, here's a post from the 'Sal vay cee or Salvayshun' thread. We had got off topic and had been discussing English place names, Old English (Anglo Saxon) and Middle English:
Here's the Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon.
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; [Father our thou that art in the heavens]
Si þin nama gehalgod [be thy name hallowed]
to becume þin rice [to come thy kingdom (rice, pronounced 'reekuh' = modern German reich)]
gewurþe ðin willa [be done thy will]
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. [on earth as in the heavens]
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg [our daily bread give us today]
and forgyf us ure gyltas [and forgive us our sins (sins = gyltas/guilts)]
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum [as we forgive our ones-who-have-sinned-against-us]
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge [and not lead thou us into temptation]
ac alys us of yfele. Soþlice [but deliver us from evil. Truly (= soothly)]
And here are the common AS place-name elements:
ham = home/homestead (Mitcham)
tun/ton = farm/farmstead (Wilton); later 'town'
hamton = combination of the previous two (in later centuries, -ton becomes a town with walls, and hamton often acquires a 'p' because we seem to find it easier to pronounce - hampton)
burna = stream (Eastbourne; note the Frenchified spelling of -bourne. As usual, the Scots are best at preserving AS words - burn.)
denu = valley (Willesden)
dun = hill (Croydon)
ingas = the people of (Woking = the people of an AS called something like Wocca)
ingham = homestead of the people of (Nottingham = homestead of the people of Snotta; Birmingham = homestead of the people of Beormund)
ington = farmstead of the people of (Worthington)
leah = clearing, meadow (Beverley = meadow with beavers)
mere = pond (Cromer)
stan = stone (Blundeston)
stede = site of buildings (Hampstead - hamstede is the origin of 'homestead')
worth = enclosure (Rickmansworth)
To which I have to add these contemporary Danish/Viking elements:
by = homestead or farmstead (Derby, Whitby, Tenby)
dale = valley (Wensleydale)
galthr = gate (Harrogate)
holmr = flat ground near a river (Holmfirth, Oxenholme)
thorpe = outlying farmstead (Cleethorpes)
thveit = clearing (Braithwaite)
toft = plot of land (Lowestoft)
For completeness, here are the common Celtic and Roman elements in English place-names (all older than the previous ones);
Celtic:
combe = deep valley (Salcombe)
pen = hill (Penrith)
pol = pool (Polperro)
tre = farmstead (Trevose)
Roman:
castra = fortified town (AS adoption = ceaster, which we know as Chester)
colonia = settlement (Lincoln)
porta = gate (Stockport)
portus = harbour (Portsmouth)
strata = street (Stratford)
And - finally - an example. I was born near Winchester and grew up there, so here's the story of its name.
1. The tribe that appears to have named it first was a Celtic tribe that the Romans called the Belgae (the same lot that gave their name to Belgium!). They called it something like Caer Gwent (White City) - presumably because it's surrounded by chalk. The important part is the Celtic element for 'white' - wen.
2. It was big enough when the Romans arrived for them to take over the existing name. Or at least they kept the 'wen' sound, but turned it into Venta Belgarum ('a place the Belgae call Ven'). By the way, this is good evidence that the Romans pronounced V as W, at least in formal writing.
3. Along came the Anglo Saxons (Jutes, more like) and settled there, calling it Winton ('a town - ton, in its later meaning - the locals call "Win"') plus -ceaster, because it was a fortified Roman town. Wintonceaster.
4. More than 1000 years of adaptation have left us with Winchester.
To begin, here's a post from the 'Sal vay cee or Salvayshun' thread. We had got off topic and had been discussing English place names, Old English (Anglo Saxon) and Middle English:
Here's the Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon.
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; [Father our thou that art in the heavens]
Si þin nama gehalgod [be thy name hallowed]
to becume þin rice [to come thy kingdom (rice, pronounced 'reekuh' = modern German reich)]
gewurþe ðin willa [be done thy will]
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. [on earth as in the heavens]
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg [our daily bread give us today]
and forgyf us ure gyltas [and forgive us our sins (sins = gyltas/guilts)]
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum [as we forgive our ones-who-have-sinned-against-us]
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge [and not lead thou us into temptation]
ac alys us of yfele. Soþlice [but deliver us from evil. Truly (= soothly)]
And here are the common AS place-name elements:
ham = home/homestead (Mitcham)
tun/ton = farm/farmstead (Wilton); later 'town'
hamton = combination of the previous two (in later centuries, -ton becomes a town with walls, and hamton often acquires a 'p' because we seem to find it easier to pronounce - hampton)
burna = stream (Eastbourne; note the Frenchified spelling of -bourne. As usual, the Scots are best at preserving AS words - burn.)
denu = valley (Willesden)
dun = hill (Croydon)
ingas = the people of (Woking = the people of an AS called something like Wocca)
ingham = homestead of the people of (Nottingham = homestead of the people of Snotta; Birmingham = homestead of the people of Beormund)
ington = farmstead of the people of (Worthington)
leah = clearing, meadow (Beverley = meadow with beavers)
mere = pond (Cromer)
stan = stone (Blundeston)
stede = site of buildings (Hampstead - hamstede is the origin of 'homestead')
worth = enclosure (Rickmansworth)
To which I have to add these contemporary Danish/Viking elements:
by = homestead or farmstead (Derby, Whitby, Tenby)
dale = valley (Wensleydale)
galthr = gate (Harrogate)
holmr = flat ground near a river (Holmfirth, Oxenholme)
thorpe = outlying farmstead (Cleethorpes)
thveit = clearing (Braithwaite)
toft = plot of land (Lowestoft)
For completeness, here are the common Celtic and Roman elements in English place-names (all older than the previous ones);
Celtic:
combe = deep valley (Salcombe)
pen = hill (Penrith)
pol = pool (Polperro)
tre = farmstead (Trevose)
Roman:
castra = fortified town (AS adoption = ceaster, which we know as Chester)
colonia = settlement (Lincoln)
porta = gate (Stockport)
portus = harbour (Portsmouth)
strata = street (Stratford)
And - finally - an example. I was born near Winchester and grew up there, so here's the story of its name.
1. The tribe that appears to have named it first was a Celtic tribe that the Romans called the Belgae (the same lot that gave their name to Belgium!). They called it something like Caer Gwent (White City) - presumably because it's surrounded by chalk. The important part is the Celtic element for 'white' - wen.
2. It was big enough when the Romans arrived for them to take over the existing name. Or at least they kept the 'wen' sound, but turned it into Venta Belgarum ('a place the Belgae call Ven'). By the way, this is good evidence that the Romans pronounced V as W, at least in formal writing.
3. Along came the Anglo Saxons (Jutes, more like) and settled there, calling it Winton ('a town - ton, in its later meaning - the locals call "Win"') plus -ceaster, because it was a fortified Roman town. Wintonceaster.
4. More than 1000 years of adaptation have left us with Winchester.
- 'fortified place of the scrubland region'. Perhaps it's nicer to think of shrub instead of scrub, essentially the same OE word but this spelling presumably shows the northern (Viking) preference for sk over soft, gentle southern sh. (I'm guessing that this occurrence may be from an up-country text.)
. Northerners skreeked where southerners shreeched, so with typical British compromise we've ended up with shriek and screech, and over the years developed a subtle distinction in meaning too! Ain't we Brits wonderful??
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