The Dragon With Two Tongues

[french frank]

The Sunday Feature (Today, 28 Oct., 7.45pm).

"Poet Gwyneth Lewis looks at the modern revival of the Welsh language.

Inspired by a radio lecture entitled Tynged yr Iaith (The Fate of the Language) by the playwright Saunders Lewis - which predicted the end of Welsh as a living language if radical steps were not taken - in October 1962 a group of people approached the main bridge in Aberystwyth and sat down on it. They refused to move, blocking traffic for several hours. It was the first action by the newly-formed Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (Welsh Language Society) and marked the beginning of a movement of language activism and campaigning in Wales that continues to the present day.

In the 50 years since Saunders Lewis's dire predictions, the status of the language has changed a great deal: Wales is now officially a bilingual nation, with a growing Welsh-language education sector and relatively flourishing Welsh-language publishing, film production, and music industries.

But while the number of Welsh speakers might be increasing, the number of organic Welsh-speaking communities is in decline."

[Gordon]

Thanks FF for the hint, I just managed to catch the programme, although it will be on the player of course. Interesting take on the language and its place in a world dominated by English. Hard to be other than pessimistic about the long term future of Welsh as a living language.

Meanwhile, those of us that remain with the language learned at our mother's knee we can only do what we can. By not using it we help kill it. The basic problem is economics. I have seen the decline in my own lifetime in terms of what has happened to the community I grew up in and the values and culture it had. Fortunately there are still strong signs of a vital culture in at least popular music [derivative though it is] and literature - this being more lively and vibrant.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Dioch y'n fawr, Ffrengig!

[Gordon]

Wyt ti'n Cymro, FHG??! O ba le?

[french frank]

Dioch y'n fawr, Ffrengig!

Croeso!

'Dwy'n hoffi coffi!

[french frank]

Hard to be other than pessimistic about the long term future of Welsh as a living language.

Yes, the view that forcing children to learn everything via Welsh, when they speak English out of school, meant they would miss out on the highest academic standards was troubling.

[amateur51]

I wonder if the recent resurgence in Catalan nationalism holds any clues in terms of a way forward for Wales and the Welsh language

[amateur51]

Yes, the view that forcing children to learn everything via Welsh, when they speak English out of school, meant they would miss out on the highest academic standards was troubling.

I wonder if those concerns were expressed in Victorian times when Welsh-speaking children were forcibly educated in English

Edit: a genuine question - not sniping

[MrGongGong]

Yes, the view that forcing children to learn everything via Welsh, when they speak English out of school, meant they would miss out on the highest academic standards was troubling.

Interesting , I didn't hear the programme (yet)
but am struck with the comparison with the "scandal" in England a couple of years ago when there were things in the papers about how shocking it was that there were schools in London with 75% or more children with English as a second language and how this was a "problem". At the same time I was working with a school in London where about 80% of the group I was working with had English as a second language, and often French as a third, Arabic as a fourth etc etc speaking more than one language is an educational advantage. Even if you went to a Welsh Speaking school it would be hard NOT to also be fluent in English. Many of the children I have met who have English as a second (or even third) language are completely fluent in it as well as their "first" language.

[Richard Tarleton]

I wonder if the recent resurgence in Catalan nationalism holds any clues in terms of a way forward for Wales and the Welsh language

I think not, ams. Catalan is spoken by over 90% of the population of Catalunya. It is the default language of government, business and commerce as well as daily life. I've given a presentation (in Castilian) in the Catalan government building in Barcelona, the Generalitat, my host giving a tongue in cheek apology that the presentation would not be in Catalan!

There is a much stronger parallel between the Welsh situation and that in Euskadi, where a similar minority speaks Basque to that speaking Welsh (perhaps smaller). And, whereas Catalan is a Romance language recognisably similar to Castilian with overtones of French, Basque is (like Welsh) completely impenetrable to a non-speaker. Even other Gaelic languages are mutually incomprehensible.

[amateur51]

Interesting , I didn't hear the programme (yet)
but am struck with the comparison with the "scandal" in England a couple of years ago when there were things in the papers about how shocking it was that there were schools in London with 75% or more children with English as a second language and how this was a "problem". At the same time I was working with a school in London where about 80% of the group I was working with had English as a second language, and often French as a third, Arabic as a fourth etc etc speaking more than one language is an educational advantage. Even if you went to a Welsh Speaking school it would be hard NOT to also be fluent in English. Many of the children I have met who have English as a second (or even third) language are completely fluent in it as well as their "first" language.

Ten years back I worked for an organisation that supported financially and otherwise supplementary schools in London. We funded a directory of all such schools in UK and were surprised and delighted to find that there were over 2,000. I now read that there are over 5,000 in UK. They do amazing work and there is clear evidence that developing multi-langusage skills at an early age enhances a child's progress through school. Most of them are run by local communities, many of them communities of refugees. So when asked "what do refugee communities offer the wider society?" I always answer "check out your nearest supplementary school - they'd be delighted by your interest"

[amateur51]

I think not, ams. Catalan is spoken by over 90% of the population of Catalunya. It is the default language of government, business and commerce as well as daily life. I've given a presentation (in Castilian) in the Catalan government building in Barcelona, the Generalitat, my host giving a tongue in cheek apology that the presentation would not be in Catalan!

There is a much stronger parallel between the Welsh situation and that in Euskadi, where a similar minority speaks Basque to that speaking Welsh (perhaps smaller). And, whereas Catalan is a Romance language recognisably similar to Castilian with overtones of French, Basque is (like Welsh) completely impenetrable to a non-speaker. Even other Gaelic languages are mutually incomprehensible.

Many thanks for this Richard - very interesting practical examples

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Wyt ti'n Cymro, FHG??!

Mae'n ddrwg geni, ddim.

O ba le?

O Pategonia!

It's been over three years since I last spoke Welsh, and then it was very basic greetings and shop talk. (Not much use: I was on holiday in Kent!) My partner is part Welsh and we visit frequently; it's only polite (and greatly satifying) to get at least a basic vocabulary. Very basic, in my case - in a cafe in Mold (?Y Wrdigg?) I asked for "Yn wys a di saesnigs, os gwaleth yn dda"!

I miss the opportunity to practise Welsh, and I'm fascinated by all the pre-Anglo-Saxon Prythonic languages - not least because of place names in the Pennines where I was born and now live (Darwen, from "Dwr wynn", Pen-y-ghent, etc). But I would hate it to become simply a tourist hobby or a matter for academic research: it should be as vital a part of the whole culture of Wales - just as it is in Pategonia!

Talking of academia - is it still true that Welsh language & literature studies in Welsh Universities (as I'm writing, the Welsh words are popping into my head - ?Prifysgol?) study of the Mabinogion stories are based on a late 20th Century "translation" of the Mediaeval texts? This struck me as odd: imagine studying Beowulf only from Heaney's (or Crosseley-Holland's) translations!

[Richard Tarleton]

Very basic, in my case - in a cafe in Mold (?Y Wrdigg?) I asked for "Yn wys a di saesnigs, os gwaleth yn dda"!

Just be careful where you try that, ferney!

[french frank]

Talking of academia - is it still true that Welsh language & literature studies in Welsh Universities (as I'm writing, the Welsh words are popping into my head - ?Prifysgol?) study of the Mabinogion stories are based on a late 20th Century "translation" of the Mediaeval texts? This struck me as odd: imagine studying Beowulf only from Heaney's (or Crosseley-Holland's) translations!

I don't know about 'still': I studied medieval Welsh at university and we read the original - not the manuscripts but Ifor Williams's edition: Pedeir Keinc y Mabinogi, allan o Lyfr Gwyn Rhydderch.