The value of children's fiction

[french frank]

I made an attempt to read the first book but didn’t get beyond the first few pages. Firstly, the language was too much like the kind that meant to make you ‘feel the part’, and secondly, the main character has a talking dog as a companion.

The Guardian has a couple of extracts and, like you, language and style matter to me - and this I couldn't take for more than a page or two. I'd prefer Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer.

NB It's not what is being said ('clock striking thirteen'), it's how it's being expressed.

[doversoul1]

I'm not going to bother you with narrative or plot details from the Ness three, but that so curt ridicule and dismissal of the trilogy having read 'a few pages' seems to smack of lack of wish to participate usefully in the issues.

'I only got as far as the 'clock striking thirteen', laughed out loud and thought blow that for a lark, I'm out of this book right now! Thirteen o'clock....I mean.........'

That will definitely get me reading. The 'clock striking thirteen’ opens up many possibilities but a talking dog opens up many problems: where does it stop? Every living thing has human intelligence and their utterances fill the air? Do they interfere with humans' thoughts? And if a human can make a horse rear up by sending his thought, can a horse do the same to a human? And so on and so forth. No matter how good the plot seems, if what it is built on is something as convenient as a talking dog, it does not count as a serious novel to me.

YA writing is not at all likely to be 'children's fiction' with all that that might imply

A hero in an adventure story for children almost always has a companion. The companion provides the hero with practical help in the story but more importantly, it, be it a human or an animal, functions as a buffer between the child readers' sensibility and the child hero’s fears and anxieties. I guess Ness's story would be very hard to read if it did not have the dog.

Whilst YA authors have no restrictions in their choice of subjects, they can still avoid telling their readers undiluted reality or truth. You could say it can have a cake and eat it. Certainly for adult readers.

[ed.] I bought the book new. I was very disappointed that I couldn’t possibly appreciate it.

[greenilex]

What is terewth, undiluted or flowing like a river?

Not sure if at 75 I will ever truthfully be that kind of adult...

[doversoul1]

What is terewth, undiluted or flowing like a river?

Not sure if at 75 I will ever truthfully be that kind of adult...

Those who seriously write for children usually/often want to help their readers (children) to develop their minds and intelligence to be able to think about such things.

[ed.] this goes back to the question in the original post of this thread: are children’s books essential for adult readers? No. children’s books are for children. Adults shouldn’t mess about with them trying to make them into entertainment for themselves.

[Conchis]

'When I became a man, I put childish things behind me.'

Not entirely true. I've read a couple of children's books as an adult. The best by far was The Mouse & His Child by Russell Hoban, whose adult work I admire greatly (Turtle Diary is a great, under-the-radar book) and I'll always admire Norton Juster's The Phantom Tollbooth. Let me tell you: the Terrible Trivium lives and walks among us!

Not much time for Rowling, though. I tried to read the first HP book a few years back and found it tedious, so gave up. From what I've read, it's not totally representative of the series, though. I am currently interested in reading Ian Fleming's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, which is supposed to be totally different from the well-known film. Generally, I think writers of thrillers and erotica make good children's authors - Fleming and Roald Dahl come to mind immediately. Dahl writes about chocolate for children the way he writes about sex for adults (anyone else an admirer of his My Uncle Oswald stories?); apparently, Fleming pulls much the same trick in Chitty....with a recipe for fudge.

My favourite author as a child was Leon Garfield, whose books are a great preparation for tackling 'adult' literature. Smith was the 'famous one' but Devil In The Fog was always my favourite.

[DracoM]

Try 'Riddley Walker' / Russell Hoban.
For adults or children? Or both?

[johncorrigan]

'When I became a man, I put childish things behind me.'

Not entirely true. I've read a couple of children's books as an adult. The best by far was The Mouse & His Child by Russell Hoban, whose adult work I admire greatly (Turtle Diary is a great, under-the-radar book) and I'll always admire Norton Juster's The Phantom Tollbooth. Let me tell you: the Terrible Trivium lives and walks among us!

Not much time for Rowling, though. I tried to read the first HP book a few years back and found it tedious, so gave up. From what I've read, it's not totally representative of the series, though. I am currently interested in reading Ian Fleming's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, which is supposed to be totally different from the well-known film. Generally, I think writers of thrillers and erotica make good children's authors - Fleming and Roald Dahl come to mind immediately. Dahl writes about chocolate for children the way he writes about sex for adults (anyone else an admirer of his My Uncle Oswald stories?); apparently, Fleming pulls much the same trick in Chitty....with a recipe for fudge.

My favourite author as a child was Leon Garfield, whose books are a great preparation for tackling 'adult' literature. Smith was the 'famous one' but Devil In The Fog was always my favourite.

I have a bit of a different perspective on JK Rowling, Conchis, as I read all the books aloud to my kids as they were growing, usually when we were on holiday. Even after they were quite capable of reading the books alone it became tradition. The books usually came out on Harry's birthday, July 31st, so the books remind me of being on holiday and heading into a side room with the kids to read. They were great to read out loud, really fun, exciting, and at times so funny that I could not read for laughing...and they were page turning. Sometimes it was all I could do to not go reading ahead after the kids had gone to bed.
Other books that I got a different perspective when reading aloud, from when I read them as a teen, were 'Treasure Island' and 'Kidnapped'. Reading them aloud gave me a different flow of the language - they were such fun to read, and so exciting.
Ransome's 'Swallows and Amazons' tales were books I loved as a child, but again reading them aloud was such a delight, especially, I recall, 'We didn't mean to go to Sea'.
I read loads of 'Just William' growing up, but these days there is little better and cosier than getting them read to you by Martin Jarvis on the radio.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I read both Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang books when I was about ten (possibly a bit older). I greatly enjoyed them - they are very different from the film (which I remember finding far too long when I saw it when it first came out). The only detail that I can recall from the books now is that the car is the same racing-green Bentley that famously took part in a race (?and crashed?) and was also owned by the book incarnation of James Bond.

[french frank]

For some people, at least, there is bound to be a vast difference between what they read as children (and enjoyed, and indeed, might possibly still enjoy/or might find unreadable) and what younger generations of children are reading now. Unless you are a teacher with the aim of encouraging young people to read, why would you seek out children's/YA fiction rather than the tons of stuff that has been, and is being, written for the average adult? I mean, why?

[DracoM]

It's an 'also', the one does not exclude the other.

[Conchis]

For some people, at least, there is bound to be a vast difference between what they read as children (and enjoyed, and indeed, might possibly still enjoy/or might find unreadable) and what younger generations of children are reading now. Unless you are a teacher with the aim of encouraging young people to read, why would you seek out children's/YA fiction rather than the tons of stuff that has been, and is being, written for the average adult? I mean, why?

Well, there are insights to be found everywhere. From a stylistic point of view, you might admire how a YA writer deals with Adult themes for his YA audience. One of my favourite adolescent books was Goodnight, Prof, Love by John Rowe Townshend (in his later years, a somewhat bellicose and opinionated ideologue of children' literature) - an entirely likeable story about a middle-class 16-year old boy who takes up with an eighteen year old slattern because he fears surrendering to the 'conventional future' his parents have got mapped out for him. The book was published in the early 70s, so times weren't all that liberated and JRT has to be very careful over what he can and cannot depict. But the book is a triumph and actually manages an optimistic (but not facile) ending, which used to be considered all-important for young adult readers.

[doversoul1]

It's an 'also', the one does not exclude the other.

But why do you include them?

I thought a bit more about the book we were discussing up-thread: Towards the end of the book, Todd, the main character, sends a word SNAKE to a horse and the horse rears up (unless I got this wrong, that is). This implies that horses, at least this one, not only understand what the word signifies but they are also capable of making an inference in the same way as we English speaking humans would run if we hear a word ‘BOMB’. So, what else can horses and dogs do?

As I mentioned earlier, this is a very typical of young adult fiction. I can’t see any adults valuing this seriously beyond good entertainment.

Conchis#101

The book was published in the early 70s, so times weren't all that liberated and JRT has to be very careful over what he can and cannot depict

.

That is the very point I have been on about; today’s young adult fiction has none of the restrictions JRT had to consider. The authors are free to or even encouraged to write just about any subject (the more shocking, the better). So why don’t they write for adult readers? Because they would be much more thoroughly scrutinised in general fiction. No talking animals or a two-year old human infant not just surviving in a disused church until he leaves school but without anybody asking any questions about his parents etc., and etc.. Who would take these seriously if these were written for adults?

Another issue is; children have no buying power. Books that only appeal to young children are not high in market value. Once publishes discovered how to attract adult readers, a new market was born.

[Conchis]

But why do you include them?

I thought a bit more about the book we were discussing up-thread: Towards the end of the book, Todd, the main character, sends a word SNAKE to a horse and the horse rears up (unless I got this wrong, that is). This implies that horses, at least this one, not only understand what the word signifies but they are also capable of making an inference in the same way as we English speaking humans would run if we hear a word ‘BOMB’. So, what else can horses and dogs do?

As I mentioned earlier, this is a very typical of young adult fiction. I can’t see any adults valuing this seriously beyond good entertainment.

Conchis#101
.

That is the very point I have been on about; today’s young adult fiction has none of the restrictions JRT had to consider. The authors are free to or even encouraged to write just about any subject (the more shocking, the better). So why don’t they write for adult readers? Because they would be much more thoroughly scrutinised in general fiction. No talking animals or two year old human infant not just surviving in a disused church until he leaves school but without anybody asking any questions etc., and etc.. Who would take these seriously if these were written for adults?

Another issue is; children have no buying power. Books that only appeal to young children are not high in market value. Once publishes discovered how to attract adult readers, a new market was born.

Someone I knew wrote a YA novel a few years back. She got an agent but failed to find a publisher. The reason? The book was felt to be 'too explicit' for a young adult readership and 'too tame' for an adult one. She struggled with changes for a while before giving in and going down the self-publishing route (where the book sank like a stone).

[french frank]

From a stylistic point of view, you might admire how a YA writer deals with Adult themes for his YA audience.

That's fair enough - but it suggests the work is an object of study, and for a particular purpose - rather than just a book to be read. That's how I used to read novels I had to give lectures/tutorials on. I still think you'd need to have a particular interest in young adults to want to read a book for that purpose.

I'm with ds (now there's a surprise!) on her response to Draco: simply saying that one reads adult fiction as well as YA fiction doesn't, for me, get to the root of why anyone would read a book intended for (very) young people. Is there a purpose behind it or do you actually enjoy youth fiction as much as adult fiction - which may be something I would marvel at, but I would just accept that that was the reason.

[doversoul1]

Someone I knew wrote a YA novel a few years back. She got an agent but failed to find a publisher. The reason? The book was felt to be 'too explicit' for a young adult readership and 'too tame' for an adult one. She struggled with changes for a while before giving in and going down the self-publishing route (where the book sank like a stone).

This is an interesting point. Young adult fiction writers are allowed to write about anything but not anyhow*. I imagine the person you knew wanted to write about the subject of her/his choice without compromising or ‘cheating’. I wonder why s/he wanted to write for young adult readers.
* especially if it makes adults uncomfortable

french frank

I still think you'd need to have a particular interest in young adults to want to read a book for that purpose

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I'm with ff (now there's a surprise!) here