Do3: 29 April, Measure for Measure

[french frank]

Just read the last Act. I can see where you're coming from with that description, but it feels a bit anachronistic. The Duke seems to be well in control (which doesn't tally with your earlier comments that he was 'incompetent'). In each situation, he knows the truth and feigns not to. In fact he has engineered it all, though not for no reason - he is outmanoeuvring Angelo. If he could be accused of 'cruelty' it would be in taking his time to reveal the truth. He threatens but in the end is merciful.

He said at one point that he had 'ever loved the life removed', which presumably explains the general laxness of life in Vienna. This now seems to be an effort to take responsibility (yes, rulers were autocrats), though in the end his actions do demonstrate mercy and justice. I'm not at all convinced that he is supposed to be seen as somehow morally repugnant.

[Lat-Literal]

I would need to locate my A'level notes but, on reading this thread, it does seem suited to these times, whatever its merits.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm about half-way through listening to this (excellent) production, of what is one of my favourite Shakespeare plays (along with Winter's Tale, which happily follows it on R3 next Sunday). It's precisely the play's dark ambiguities, highlighted in this thread (fwiw my personal reading tends to be along the same lines as ff's), which are a major part of why I love it...

it is definitely not a minor play and actually a riveting theatrical experience, both in terms of drama and poetry.

- I couldn't agree more, not least about the quality of a lot of the poetry.

Like gurnemanz, I came to the play through a Young Vic production - though mine was in the early 1990s: the late great Philip Madoc, magnificent and humane as the Duke/Lodowick, and David Haig rivetting as the tortured Angelo. One of those intoxicating Shakespeare productions that had me going back twice over.

Thanks gurnemanz for that YT link which I look forward to hearing.

[french frank]

I'm about half-way through listening to this (excellent) production, of what is one of my favourite Shakespeare plays (along with Winter's Tale, which happily follows it on R3 next Sunday). It's precisely the play's dark ambiguities, highlighted in this thread (fwiw my personal reading tends to be along the same lines as ff's), which are a major part of why I love it...

Oh, joy, an ally!

[Nick Armstrong]

Oh, joy, an ally!

Pondering a strange Shakespeare-Wodehouse link at the moment - re-reading The Mating Season (could be a subtitle for Measure!) at the moment, and the theme of characters posing as others to avoid disaster and to bring about 'coupling' seems very interlinked! The Duke managing the Isabella/Mariana switch has merged in my mind with Jeeves's plan to unravel the Bertie/Gussie/"Catsmeat" imbroglio The "moated grange" in Measure could be in the grounds of Deverill Hall.

Mind you, there are more aunts in The Mating Season... And PGW references Merchant of Venice rather than Measure: when Bertie asks Jeeves why Gussie had been shown clemency by the magistrate:

"Possibly the reflection that the quality of mercy is not strained, sir."

"You mean it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven?"

"Precisely, sir. Upon the place beneath. His worship would no doubt have taken into consideration the fact that it blesseth him that gives and him that takes and becomes the throned monarch better than his crown."

I mused. Yes, there was something in that

[french frank]

- "Possibly the reflection that the quality of mercy is not strained, sir."
- "You mean it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven?"
- "Precisely, sir. Upon the place beneath. His worship would no doubt have taken into consideration the fact that it blesseth him that gives and him that takes and becomes the throned monarch better than his crown."
- I mused. Yes, there was something in that

Reminds me of my Late Parent remembering scraps from his schooldays:

Tennis balls, my liege

being one of his favourites.

Thinking of Measure for Measure (as I have been), I might make the Duke younger than usual (can't remember, as I've only seen it once); now about 30. His 'life removed' somewhat studious, perhaps studying law with Escalus, when he 'awakens' to realise that he's let things slip a bit, governance-wise. Appts Angelo while he goes incognito to examine the extent of the damage. Returns to chaos, but with a determination to restore justice (rather than Angelo's punishments). Having been appalled by Angelo's treatment of Isabella et al, he is riveted by her joining with Mariana in an appeal for mercy. Respectfully asks her for her hand in marriage …

Need to read the play again more carefully to see if this would actually fit the text.

[Conchis]

In the first scene, it is implied that Escalus is the senior of the three and Angelo the youngest. But that might not mean anything - the difference is surely to do with class/caste, the Duke being an aristorcate/autocrat.

[french frank]

the difference is surely to do with class/caste, the Duke being an aristorcate/autocrat.

Is that the case? The Duke is the ruler and so outranks the rest, but both Escalus and Angelo are described as 'Lords' (Escalus - an ancient lord - refers to 'Lord Angelo'). So you could say it was a difference of rank - and rulers tended to be autocrats. Neither the Duke nor Angelo is already married, so may be presumed to be young(ish).

[Conchis]

Is that the case? The Duke is the ruler and so outranks the rest, but both Escalus and Angelo are described as 'Lords' (Escalus - an ancient lord - refers to 'Lord Angelo'). So you could say it was a difference of rank - and rulers tended to be autocrats. Neither the Duke nor Angelo is already married, so may be presumed to be young(ish).

Doesn't the Duke virtually confess to the Friar that his 'inexperienced' and that the opposite sex is a bit of an 'unknown zone' for him? I may conceivably be confusing it with another play here....

[french frank]

Doesn't the Duke virtually confess to the Friar that his 'inexperienced' and that the opposite sex is a bit of an 'unknown zone' for him? I may conceivably be confusing it with another play here....

He says to Friar Thomas in Act I sc 3:

No, holy father, throw away that thought.
Believe not that the dribbling dart of love
Can pierce a complete bosom. Why I desire thee
To give me secret harbor hath a purpose
More grave and wrinkled than the aims and ends
Of burning youth.
[… ]

My holy sir, none better knows than you
How I have ever loved the life removed,
And held in idle price to haunt assemblies
Where youth and cost witless bravery keeps.

Is that the bit?

[Conchis]

He says to Friar Thomas in Act I sc 3:

No, holy father, throw away that thought.
Believe not that the dribbling dart of love
Can pierce a complete bosom. Why I desire thee
To give me secret harbor hath a purpose
More grave and wrinkled than the aims and ends
Of burning youth.
[… ]

My holy sir, none better knows than you
How I have ever loved the life removed,
And held in idle price to haunt assemblies
Where youth and cost witless bravery keeps.

Is that the bit?

Yes, I think that's it.