Drama to be eradicated from Radio 3

[Ein Heldenleben]

Wise words. They pinpoint the fallacy of the ever-hopeful "tempt them in with sweeties and they might try a full main course" line of argument, which is trotted out with boring predictability. It's more accurate to say, that if you keep feeding them sweeties their teeth will rot.

Well I spent years playing Beatles and Elton John songs on the piano and it was a crucial factor in developing excellent sight reading skills.
Just got to work on the technique a bit .

[Master Jacques]

As a teacher of a subject area that was thought of as 'difficult, I found that the more you demanded of students, the more they gave - not least because they had to, but the point is that they were capable of it if stretched.

Wise words. They pinpoint the fallacy of the ever-hopeful "tempt them in with sweeties and they might try a full main course" line of argument, which is trotted out with boring predictability. It's more accurate to say, that if you keep feeding them sweeties their teeth will rot.

[french frank]

I'm not sure that Radio 3 really knows what kind of audience it wants. It would be nice to think that at least some people who enjoy Breakfast and Essential Classics might be tempted to try the afternoon or evening offerings.

What makes you think they don't listen to the afternoon miscellany? Back c 2000 R3 'hoped' (did they really?) that people who tuned in for the new Late Junction would develop a taste for 'the other treats' [sic] which R3 had to offer.The audience research showed they switched R3 on for Late Junction and then switched over to another station (nowadays it seems to be also Unclassified then over to 6 Music), and grumbled about how the rest of R3 was 'unlistenable'.

As a teacher of a subject area that was thought of as 'difficult, I found that the more you demanded of students, the more they gave - not least because they had to, but the point is that they were capable of it if stretched.

[french frank]

I'm not sure that Radio 3 really knows what kind of audience it wants.

A big one.

[LMcD]

The changes to the music output have happened over years, so adjustments happened gradually, although not without grumbling. The April assault was more sudden and dramatic, but in some respects possibly provoked less reaction than might otherwise have been the case because of the desensitisation of preceding years. The dropping of drama - in effect going from something to nothing in one fell swoop - is rather different, and more akin to the attempt to get rid of the BBC Singers. The years of downgrading the music offer is the frog boiling scenario, whereas the the dropping of drama is more akin to killing a lobster.
In the past I did try communicating both negative and also positive views on programmes, but when it got to the stage where there wasn't even an auto-response saying they were too busy to bother replying I gave up, and since the April assault there seems even less point in trying to communicate. I am not the audience wanted, or at which the current R3 is aimed, not least because I can't make use of Sounds.

I'm not sure that Radio 3 really knows what kind of audience it wants. It would be nice to think that at least some people who enjoy Breakfast and Essential Classics might be tempted to try the afternoon or evening offerings. The earliest I'm likely to tune in is 12.00 on Sundays, and 13.00 on Mondays if I like the look of the Wigmore Hall Lunchtime Concert, returning at 19.30 if the evening concert appeals. I'm happy to say that there have been three crackers so far this week. Night Tracks and 'Round Midnight are firm favourites. During the evening I record any TV programmes of interest and watch them during the day at times when I used to listen to Radio 3.

[oddoneout]

But it does seem to be what most people, many here indeed, actually want. If there's a complaint about the dropping of 'new and old drama' which not available anywhere else, there are fewer complaining about hours on end of ragbag streams of pop-length 'tracks'.

The changes to the music output have happened over years, so adjustments happened gradually, although not without grumbling. The April assault was more sudden and dramatic, but in some respects possibly provoked less reaction than might otherwise have been the case because of the desensitisation of preceding years. The dropping of drama - in effect going from something to nothing in one fell swoop - is rather different, and more akin to the attempt to get rid of the BBC Singers. The years of downgrading the music offer is the frog boiling scenario, whereas the the dropping of drama is more akin to killing a lobster.
In the past I did try communicating both negative and also positive views on programmes, but when it got to the stage where there wasn't even an auto-response saying they were too busy to bother replying I gave up, and since the April assault there seems even less point in trying to communicate. I am not the audience wanted, or at which the current R3 is aimed, not least because I can't make use of Sounds.

[french frank]

n music it seems acceptable to let it just wash all over you.

But it does seem to be what most people, many here indeed, actually want. If there's a complaint about the dropping of 'new and old drama' which not available anywhere else, there are fewer complaining about hours on end of ragbag streams of pop-length 'tracks'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Given, in the case of some purists, one might say it depends what you mean by 'classical', I think few would bother to claim there was "less" of it. It's the presentation that's the problem (and not automatically the presenters). Fewer full symphonies played, more bits of symphonies; more presenter-led magazine-type snippets programmes, fewer subject-focused programmes; nominally 'classical' programmes, punctuated with anything someone might call 'music', classical or otherwise; more Classic FM-type warhorses (Overture to Candide, The Lark Ascending, Dvořák Slavonic Dances in one form or another, all played on average twice a month in the last year).

But a major disagreement (and I'd claim to be in a minority here!) is whether Radio 3 should just broadcast the music with little or no critical comment, analysis or discussion programming. Music education isn't just a question of 'Here's a composer/piece of music you haven't heard before and here's one relevant factoid'. Some people will say there's too much chat/speech content. I would say that it depends what is said: chummy presenter chat - No, musicological information - Yes.

Yes you’ve put your finger on a major change. Forty years musical explication and analysis were common. Now they’ve disappeared from Radio 3 except on Record Review . As I’ve said at boring length before in other genres e,g, football , rugby , and natural history (especially Springwatch largely because of fact obsessed Chris Packham ) such detailed analysis is not frowned upon . Uniquely in music , presenter or expert analysis is felt to be distancing, “too difficult” . It’s a long time since I’ve even heard such basic concepts as recapitulation, modulation discussed. In contrast on Springwatch one might encounter terms like separation feeding , niche evolution etc. Those are moderately difficult concepts to understand but in music it seems acceptable to let it just wash all over you.

[french frank]

I don't see how anybody can assert that there's LESS classical music being broadcast. The problem is surely that, the more of it there is, the more likely it is that some of it will upset somebody.

Given, in the case of some purists, one might say it depends what you mean by 'classical', I think few would bother to claim there was "less" of it. It's the presentation that's the problem (and not automatically the presenters). Fewer full symphonies played, more bits of symphonies; more presenter-led magazine-type snippets programmes, fewer subject-focused programmes; nominally 'classical' programmes, punctuated with anything someone might call 'music', classical or otherwise; more Classic FM-type warhorses (Overture to Candide, The Lark Ascending, Dvořák Slavonic Dances in one form or another, all played on average twice a month in the last year).

But a major disagreement (and I'd claim to be in a minority here!) is whether Radio 3 should just broadcast the music with little or no critical comment, analysis or discussion programming. Music education isn't just a question of 'Here's a composer/piece of music you haven't heard before and here's one relevant factoid'. Some people will say there's too much chat/speech content. I would say that it depends what is said: chummy presenter chat - No, musicological information - Yes.

[Serial_Apologist]

I'd previously recorded the Brahms on my TV's hard disc.
I don't see how anybody can assert that there's LESS classical music being broadcast. The problem is surely that, the more of it there is, the more likely it is that some of it will upset somebody.

So, only present it in bits at the most so that they can take classical music in? I'm trying to think of an equivalent for a broadcasting channel specialising in other interests: a programme on Victorian architecture which showed you Tower Bridge, but only one end of it, so that one got no real idea of what "Victorian architectural style" was about - there were so many; or a programme about paintings in which we were only to be shown a corner of a painting by (name any artist), then another corner by somebody else; or a programme on meteorology which illustrated only one type of cloud to demonstrate atmospheric condensation, probably without explaining the function and development of that type of cloud in atmospheric circulation. Who would want to know about boring old stratus for instance? One could go on forever dreaming up mean-minded schemes for presenting knowledge in this minimalised selective and decontextualising way to help nurture the unholistic mindsets those selling ideas and product need to screen the mobile phone addict from understanding complexities and wider consequences.

[Master Jacques]

R3's increasingly accurate impersonation of Classic FM will probably bolster the argument of those who wish to abolish, or make voluntary, the licence fee. Why pay for one service and not the other when the two are largely indistinguishable? If Classic FM and R3's daytime output consists of classical extracts divided by the aural dead space of trailers or adverts, what's the difference? One might posit that Classic FM is more efficient than R3 because it urges its listeners to "relax" with chopped-up music on just the one channel.

Quite so, in all respects. Radio 3's current direction of travel (its "offer" to listeners, ads and all) is a self-defeating counsel of despair. It is left to performers and listeners to point this out to the corporate suits, too busy negotiating their "pension benefits" and bonuses to lift a single finger to put things right.

Here's a repeat notice of Richard Eyre's interview with Roger Bolton, a URL I found on this Forum:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/sir-richard-eyre-theatre-and-film-director-and-former/id1646974353?i=1000680627599

[Hitch]

R3's increasingly accurate impersonation of Classic FM will probably bolster the argument of those who wish to abolish, or make voluntary, the licence fee. Why pay for one service and not the other when the two are largely indistinguishable? If Classic FM and R3's daytime output consists of classical extracts divided by the aural dead space of trailers or adverts, what's the difference? One might posit that Classic FM is more efficient than R3 because it urges its listeners to "relax" with chopped-up music on just the one channel.

[LMcD]

You've slightly misunderstood, I think. The Martinu was in the evening concert, so was part of what Mac's listening included as well as Night Tracks. Not sure when the Brahms was played.

I'd previously recorded the Brahms on my TV's hard disc.
I don't see how anybody can assert that there's LESS classical music being broadcast. The problem is surely that, the more of it there is, the more likely it is that some of it will upset somebody.

[Master Jacques]

The “problem” is that so many people who like a bit of classical music don’t want to sit through extended works any more . Even on this forum there are plenty who don’t much like Bruckner or even Mahler. So scheduling any of these works is high risk.

and as for Janacek - CLV being Rattles favourite work - well there are dozen of unsold seats for Jenufa at Covent Garden - the cheapest in the stalls being a mere £90 - half the price of some West End Musicals. It is sensationally well sung. I honestly think they couldn’t give tickets away for a 20th century masterpiece.

Reading Priestley's post-war novels (as I am just now) it's clear that the proportion of people willing to sit through radio performances of extended works won't have changed much since the 1940s. The difference lies in BBC Radio and TV's changed focus, as they strive to please majority tastes for as much daytime viewing and listening as they can get away with, under their charter. They are frightened of offering broader perspectives. The idea that small audiences represent "high risk" programming goes along with this new - and entirely inappropriate - commercial nexus. Massaged, high audience figures don't earn BBC any more licence money.

"A mere £90" - the lowest stall price for Royal Opera offerings this season - will still sound far too much to many people, quite rightly so. And while there is competition for astronomically-priced West End musicals and Premiere League football matches, there is soon going to be no competition in London for professional opera at all. So Covent Garden will continue to be priced exclusively.

With public subsidy trailing increasingly far beneath European levels, governments since the 1970s have pretty much guaranteed the false perception of opera as an exclusive and elitist frippery. Perhaps it might have been easier to sell tickets (more cheaply) if they'd performed Jenufa in the vernacular - as at its hugely-successful 1956 house premiere under Kubelik, with an English-speaking cast including Amy Shuard, Sylvia Fisher, Edith Coates,Joan Carlyle, John Lanigan, Otakar Kraus, Edgar Evans, Josephine Veasey, Michael Langdon and Marie Collier. Quite a line-up!

And of course, back then in the "bad old days", 'The House' had constant, vibrant competition from Sadler's Wells Opera throughout the year, to keep artistic standards high and prices relatively affordable for everyone who fancied giving it a go.

[Master Jacques]

Today's Times letter: I'm not sure that the author is correct though in blaming the decrease in the amount of classical music played on drama, jazz, global music, and essays!

Perhaps Dr Paul Heaton was referring to "classical music" in its correct sense, i.e. music from the era of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. It's possibly true, that there's less of this around Radio 3 proportionally than there was 30 years ago, though the quantity - if we add in the night-time broadcasts - may not have changed much. As others have said, it's the quality of the programming which is the issue for Radio 3, and the increasing lack of diversity (in the full rather than political sense) in its output.

Laughing stock? I'm inclined to stick by my phrase, given the clout of the groups I've outlined which do laugh at Radio 3, and the station's cowed ethos. What is beyond argument, is that Radio 3 is no longer part of the "national conversation", nor providing a significant voice in our country's cultural life for living composers.