Drama to be eradicated from Radio 3

[kernelbogey]

Because it doesn’t cost anything and is in essence an artistic product - a form of poetry really.

Really? Nothing?

[Belgrove]

And let's not forget the early days of the Third, when a whole evening would be cleared for , say, Man and Superman.

It was last done on Radio 3 in 1996, worth a listen:

https://archive.org/details/man-and-superman

(And the wonderful NT production from 2015 can be found online, also with Ralph Feinnes as Jack Tanner).

[smittims]

And let's not forget the early days of the Third, when a whole evening would be cleared for , say, Man and Superman.

Done

[LMcD]

World Service drama did lots of World Theatre (although some were abridged) - partial list here. For example Sartre's "The Assassin", Beaumarchais' "The Marriage Of Figaro", Betti's "The Queen And The Rebels", Aristophanes' "Lysistrata", O'Neill's "Mourning Becomes Electra"... and lots of Shakespeare.

We even used to have decent, longer plays on R4, often in the Saturday Night Theatre or Monday Play slots.

Sadly, all gone now.

I have to confess that I find I no longer seem to have the mental or indeed physical stamina to listen to or watch plays that last 90 minutes or more, as I'm increasingly likely to nod off, only to then wake up in time to learn the name of the murderer, but not of his or her victim(s). At present, I can normally manage to stay awake for 50-minutes episodes and sub-60-minute classical works. In the case of Mahler, only the 1st and 4th symphonies are now likely to receive my uninterrupted or unfragmented attention.

[LMcD]

Paradoxically in fact it was when the BBC had the biggest mass audiences (60’s and 70 ) that its Arts output was at its peak . But it only had ITV as a competitor and that was full of people like Sir Denis Forman who ran Granada and also wrote books about Mozart. People like that have disappeared - fair enough I can play Mozart but I was (quite rightly) kept away from running a TV station.

Yes it’s overly obsessed with demographics but there has to be some way of determining who the audience is and social surveys and audience figures based on class gender and age are very consistent in their results . The audience for Radio 3 is mouth-wateringly (from an advertisers point of view ) made up of AB1s with a high discretionary spend as the kids have left home. Luckily for R3 (and indeed us ) they are not dying as early as some expected thirty years ago
The concern is the refreshment rate . Precisely the same concerns are shared by the National Trust and the RSPB . The intersection in cohort between these three is , I’m led to believe , significant .

No one uses the word “class “ in relation to programme making particularly as it’s so difficult to define. Is a salaried pensionable person doing a very routine low skill job in an office call centre middle class? Is a self employed builder going on three foreign holidays a year working class - and how likely are either to listen to Radio 3 - we just don’t know . We do know that a high proportion are Graduates but what does that mean these days, Plenty of “middle class” people watch EastEnders and I’m sure there are manual workers who listen to Radio 3 and 4 especially lorry drivers.
The holy grail of course are “unite the Nation “ moments like Morecambe and Wise , Dad’s Army , Gavin and Stacey et al.

In the old days many of them listened to Sheila Tracy aka 'The Truckers' Floozie' on Radio 2.

[Bella Kemp]

This is terrible news

[Ein Heldenleben]

No, I wouldn't suggest that those words were used. But handsome is as handsome does. As a proportion of the BBC's current income, the arts in general - provided for the audience that already appreciates their value - gets considerably less now because of the BBC's expansion to provide for mass audiences



This is the problem with defining audiences by social class which is precisely what the BBC does. No, they don't actually use the word 'plebs'. But what is the audience which isn't 'middleclass', the one that gets bombarded with popular musics, light entertainment, reality TV, comedy shows? Opera, theatre and classical music are 'middleclass tastes'. "The arts, classical music, are for everyone," they parrot, but only as light entertainment or background listening. Anything more demanding or intelligent is automatically defined as "middleclass". So find an alternative term to 'plebs'. 'The country'? 'The people'?



Oh, I do believe you! The BBC broadcasts what they know people will consume. Mass media, marketing, commercial competition and the sociological common denominator are the drivers of cultural tastes. 'Bye 'bye, Beethoven.

Paradoxically in fact it was when the BBC had the biggest mass audiences (60’s and 70 ) that its Arts output was at its peak . But it only had ITV as a competitor and that was full of people like Sir Denis Forman who ran Granada and also wrote books about Mozart. People like that have disappeared - fair enough I can play Mozart but I was (quite rightly) kept away from running a TV station.

Yes it’s overly obsessed with demographics but there has to be some way of determining who the audience is and social surveys and audience figures based on class gender and age are very consistent in their results . The audience for Radio 3 is mouth-wateringly (from an advertisers point of view ) made up of AB1s with a high discretionary spend as the kids have left home. Luckily for R3 (and indeed us ) they are not dying as early as some expected thirty years ago
The concern is the refreshment rate . Precisely the same concerns are shared by the National Trust and the RSPB . The intersection in cohort between these three is , I’m led to believe , significant .

No one uses the word “class “ in relation to programme making particularly as it’s so difficult to define. Is a salaried pensionable person doing a very routine low skill job in an office call centre middle class? Is a self employed builder going on three foreign holidays a year working class - and how likely are either to listen to Radio 3 - we just don’t know . We do know that a high proportion are Graduates but what does that mean these days, Plenty of “middle class” people watch EastEnders and I’m sure there are manual workers who listen to Radio 3 and 4 especially lorry drivers.
The holy grail of course are “unite the Nation “ moments like Morecambe and Wise , Dad’s Army , Gavin and Stacey et al.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I understand that the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 continues to exist only because Radio 4 listeners want it, as it has some kind of ritual status, and their lobbying has preserved it. Technology has usurped its role as useful for sailors, merchant shipping et al. Why has Radio 4 succumbed to this, while Drama on 3 appears to be heading for the chop, despite arguments such as those so eloquently presented by FF?

Because it doesn’t cost anything and is in essence an artistic product - a form of poetry really.

[kernelbogey]

I understand that the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 continues to exist only because Radio 4 listeners want it, as it has some kind of ritual status, and their lobbying has preserved it. Technology has usurped its role as useful for sailors, merchant shipping et al. Why has Radio 4 succumbed to this, while Drama on 3 appears to be heading for the chop, despite arguments such as those so eloquently presented by FF?

[french frank]

I’ve never heard anyone advance the views in the last para so dismissively . No one in the corporation thinks of the audience as plebs.

No, I wouldn't suggest that those words were used. But handsome is as handsome does. As a proportion of the BBC's current income, the arts in general - provided for the audience that already appreciates their value - gets considerably less now because of the BBC's expansion to provide for mass audiences

The main concern is that middle class tastes are more than adequately catered for on BBC Two , BBC Four and Radios 3 and 4 and there is quite a bit of evidence to back that up. Both stations have a very upmarket profile and are amongst the most expensive radio stations ti run in the country

This is the problem with defining audiences by social class which is precisely what the BBC does. No, they don't actually use the word 'plebs'. But what is the audience which isn't 'middleclass', the one that gets bombarded with popular musics, light entertainment, reality TV, comedy shows? Opera, theatre and classical music are 'middleclass tastes'. "The arts, classical music, are for everyone," they parrot, but only as light entertainment or background listening. Anything more demanding or intelligent is automatically defined as "middleclass". So find an alternative term to 'plebs'. 'The country'? 'The people'?

If the BBC thought that the way of attracting this audience in was through classic radio drama believe you me they would do it,

Oh, I do believe you! The BBC broadcasts what they know people will consume. Mass media, marketing, commercial competition and the sociological common denominator are the drivers of cultural tastes. 'Bye 'bye, Beethoven.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Of course it was! It was not a 'classical music station'. Drama, poetry, discussion and (slightly later) jazz were part of a wide 'cultural network'. And it was recognised at the time that this would appeal to a small audience: the inherent cultural value of the content was more important than the relative cost and size of audience. That is no longer the case. If you don't fit into a broad mainstream, tough: short rations for you. You are wealthy, middleclass, privileged and can pay for your own pleasures.

There is no longer a sense that if you are not wealthy, middleclass and privileged you have to be satisfied with less than the best - and ignorant plebs that you are, you won't know what you're missing anyway. That is where the snobbishness lies - with the dictatorial cultural providers. But the British in general were never famed for their intellectual pursuits.

Although I have a lot of sympathy with your argument. I’ve never heard anyone advance the views in the last para so dismissively . No one in the corporation thinks of the audience as plebs. The main concern is that middle class tastes are more than adequately catered for on BBC Two , BBC Four and Radios 3 and 4 and there is quite a bit of evidence to back that up. Both stations have a very upmarket profile and are amongst the most expensive radio stations ti run in the country . The BBC’s problem has that it’s not used as much by C1C2D’s and Es particularly In the north. And they make up the vast bulk of licence fee payers.

If the BBC thought that the way of attracting this audience in was through classic radio drama believe you me they would do it,

The other thing to bear in mind is that when the Third programme was created audiences were much larger than they are now and there was very little competition. Now audiences are much smaller and catering for a minority taste within a station that is in itself a minority taste is hard to justify particularly when services like local radio which do attract a different demographic are being cut even more.
If we had the level of licence fee of say Germany (€18,36 per month ) it would be a very different story.

[french frank]

I was interested to read Lebrecht's take on this on SD: https://slippedisc.com/2025/01/small...ut-on-radio-3/
Am I right in thinking that the Third Programme's original remit was classical music, jazz and quality drama?

Of course it was! It was not a 'classical music station'. Drama, poetry, discussion and (slightly later) jazz were part of a wide 'cultural network'. And it was recognised at the time that this would appeal to a small audience: the inherent cultural value of the content was more important than the relative cost and size of audience. That is no longer the case. If you don't fit into a broad mainstream, tough: short rations for you. You are wealthy, middleclass, privileged and can pay for your own pleasures.

There is no longer a sense that if you are not wealthy, middleclass and privileged you have to be satisfied with less than the best - and ignorant plebs that you are, you won't know what you're missing anyway. That is where the snobbishness lies - with the dictatorial cultural providers. But the British in general were never famed for their intellectual pursuits.

[hmvman]

I was interested to read Lebrecht's take on this on SD: https://slippedisc.com/2025/01/small...ut-on-radio-3/

Is this a "small cut" and a "small fuss"? This sentence took my eye:

"The broadcaster cites financial pressures and claims, rightly, that listeners turn to Radio 3 for classical music, not drama – especially not very long drama without moving pictures."

Am I right in thinking that the Third Programme's original remit was classical music, jazz and quality drama?

[AuntDaisy]

Sacrilege! The point I was making was that there is NO, NO, NO classic theatre on TV. BBC 'drama' includes programmes like The Archers and soap operas. Only on Radio 3 did one ever get full-length world theatre productions. Occasionally - "Sound drums and trumpets' - there would be a Shakespeare play on television. Otherwise it's mainly short series (Henry V in five episodes on R4} or the soaps. The decline in classic theatre is being matched by the decline in classical music. Fast forward 20 years and who will be around to protest about classical music being eradicated from Radio 3?
...

World Service drama did lots of World Theatre (although some were abridged) - partial list here. For example Sartre's "The Assassin", Beaumarchais' "The Marriage Of Figaro", Betti's "The Queen And The Rebels", Aristophanes' "Lysistrata", O'Neill's "Mourning Becomes Electra"... and lots of Shakespeare.

We even used to have decent, longer plays on R4, often in the Saturday Night Theatre or Monday Play slots.

Sadly, all gone now.