Drama to be eradicated from Radio 3

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not at all sure I agree.
I might not listen to Don3 and might criticise the BBCS, but that does not and should not stop me saying that both should exist, as they provide a valuable service that ought to be part of R3's remit.

Trouble is every one wants every thing but there’s not enough money to pay for it and not enough people are willing to

To put things in context . This is what happened to the UK originated broadcast world in the last ten years or so.
These are or were programmes made in the UK for people in the UK but ones that have little foreign sales potential

The complete disappearance of non news English regional TV on BBC and ITV and severe cuts to national programmes in Wales , Scotland and NI. Some of these programmes got millions of viewers and were absolutely pure public service broadcasting

At least a 30 percent cut in the amount of Arts and music docs with the exception of pop

The complete disappearance of religious programmes with the exception of Songs Of Praise and a few rather wishy washy pilgrimage docs.

the disappearance of science progs from ITV and a severe cut on C4

At least a 30 percent cut in local radio - a service that still gets 3 times R3’s audience..

I could keep going on and on and list the news cuts , the dearth of serious docs , classic drama .

two genres that are booming - drama especially ones with foreign potential. And above all sport . The Sky footy contract would keep R3 going for millennia …

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's the value, to itself, which the BBC places on its content that's the problem. But take a hardback book: it's a more expensive product because it's the quality/longevity that costs. More people prefer to pay less and get a product that suits them better: it doesn't matter if it falls to pieces because they probably won't want to read it again. In terms of radio, R1 content gets a bigger slice of the budget (moreso with the various R1 spin-offs) than R3. The BBC has placed progressively less 'value' - to itself - on 'classical' arts content, music, literature &c and more on mass audience entertainment. That makes R3's dedicated content expendable. Ditch regular long-form drama on television, then on R3 - and that means it's only available in live theatres - when they aren't offering popular 'shows' to pull in the crowds.



But radio makes the content equally available to the less well-off who can't afford to travel to see live opera, or have no opportunity to go to a concert. Provide less and less for such audiences and lo! the less and less interested they are in it so we don't need to provide for them. And as so FEW people want 'high culture', we don't need to provide it because ... erm ...those who want it can afford it anyway.



But they think in terms of 'social grades'. If they didn't, what would be the point of researching it?



Where "Unite the Nation" means "Gets the widest, ergo biggest, audiences"! I would accept that some one-off occasions unite the nation - royal weddings, funerals &c, even though some people have incidental reasons for not being interested. But Morecambe and Wise, Dad’s Army and Gavin and Stacey are not one-offs: they're just popular comedy shows.

They only think in terms of social grades because that’s how all surveys are based in order to get an accurate reflection of opinion. No one thinks this programme needs to be aimed at AB1 males .
There has been a lot of research done on the BBC viewership and in particular support for the licence fee, What it consistently reveals is that it’s audiences tend to be skewed ABC1 and support for the fee is higher in these groups.Its also geographic - much more support in the South then the North . Surprisingly despite the large sums spent there support is weak in Scotland - though that might be bound up in independence issues,
A lot of work has been done on the idea that fhis slightly skewed audience is super- served . A lot of us thought a northern based soap was pretty much essential but it’s never happened, Why does any of this matter? - because if the BBC One audience erodes much further the future is almost certainly some from of non compulsory subscription and in those circumstances I can’t see Radio 3 surviving at all,

Incidentally all the work the BBC has done on moving work to the Nations and increasing diversity in terms of representation hasn’t moved the dial at all in terms of licence fee support . The streamers are now so pervasive and all powerful I can see both C5 and C4 disappearing and ITV subsumed into an Apple or Prime stream service with maybe a bit of token news.

[french frank]

Yes it’s overly obsessed with demographics but there has to be some way of determining who the audience is and social surveys and audience figures based on class gender and age are very consistent in their results .

It's the value, to itself, which the BBC places on its content that's the problem. But take a hardback book: it's a more expensive product because it's the quality/longevity that costs. More people prefer to pay less and get a product that suits them better: it doesn't matter if it falls to pieces because they probably won't want to read it again. In terms of radio, R1 content gets a bigger slice of the budget (moreso with the various R1 spin-offs) than R3. The BBC has placed progressively less 'value' - to itself - on 'classical' arts content, music, literature &c and more on mass audience entertainment. That makes R3's dedicated content expendable. Ditch regular long-form drama on television, then on R3 - and that means it's only available in live theatres - when they aren't offering popular 'shows' to pull in the crowds.

The audience for Radio 3 is mouth-wateringly (from an advertisers point of view ) made up of AB1s with a high discretionary spend as the kids have left home.

But radio makes the content equally available to the less well-off who can't afford to travel to see live opera, or have no opportunity to go to a concert. Provide less and less for such audiences and lo! the less and less interested they are in it so we don't need to provide for them. And as so FEW people want 'high culture', we don't need to provide it because ... erm ...those who want it can afford it anyway.

No one uses the word “class “ in relation to programme making ...

But they think in terms of 'social grades'. If they didn't, what would be the point of researching it?

The holy grail of course are “unite the Nation “ moments like Morecambe and Wise , Dad’s Army , Gavin and Stacey et al.

Where "Unite the Nation" means "Gets the widest, ergo biggest, audiences"! I would accept that some one-off occasions unite the nation - royal weddings, funerals &c, even though some people have incidental reasons for not being interested. But Morecambe and Wise, Dad’s Army and Gavin and Stacey are not one-offs: they're just popular comedy shows.

[Pulcinella]

I think the BBC definitely takes account of public pressure especially when lobbied over issues where there is a particular sensitivity like the BBC singers. Where I raise an eyebrow is when those protests come from those who never listen to Drama On Three or indeed the BBC Singers. Indeed there are quite a a few people who don’t like the sound the latter make (“too operatic”). I have listened to both in the last year and value both but why should there be any sacred cows? .

I suspect a lot of people just like jumping on the “BBC is wrecking our culture “bandwagon when the reality is the money is running out rapidly. And that’s an explicitly political decision - to reduce the BBC’s culture and influence. Fine the BBC is far from perfect but good luck in a media world run by the Musks and the Zuckerbergs.

I don’t agree with either drama or classical music being cut but my sympathies really lie with the estimated 70 per cent of people in the TV factual production business , where I worked for forty years, currently either unemployed or working in other jobs. No one seems to give a stuff about them.

Not at all sure I agree.
I might not listen to Don3 and might criticise the BBCS, but that does not and should not stop me saying that both should exist, as they provide a valuable service that ought to be part of R3's remit.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks EH. I had assumed that the Shipping Forecast was also derived from the Meteo contract, which (as you say) has a cost to it. I was being slightly (I hope) provocative as I was also thinking How come he R4 audience can successfully demand the retention of the Shipping Forecast when we here are assuming Drama on 3 can't be rescued!. And they managed to keep R4 on Long Wave for a while!

I think the BBC definitely takes account of public pressure especially when lobbied over issues where there is a particular sensitivity like the BBC singers. Where I raise an eyebrow is when those protests come from those who never listen to Drama On Three or indeed the BBC Singers. Indeed there are quite a a few people who don’t like the sound the latter make (“too operatic”). I have listened to both in the last year and value both but why should there be any sacred cows? .

I suspect a lot of people just like jumping on the “BBC is wrecking our culture “bandwagon when the reality is the money is running out rapidly. And that’s an explicitly political decision - to reduce the BBC’s culture and influence. Fine the BBC is far from perfect but good luck in a media world run by the Musks and the Zuckerbergs.

I don’t agree with either drama or classical music being cut but my sympathies really lie with the estimated 70 per cent of people in the TV factual production business , where I worked for forty years, currently either unemployed or working in other jobs. No one seems to give a stuff about them.

[kernelbogey]

Thanks EH. I had assumed that the Shipping Forecast was also derived from the Meteo contract, which (as you say) has a cost to it. I was being slightly (I hope) provocative as I was also thinking How come he R4 audience can successfully demand the retention of the Shipping Forecast when we here are assuming Drama on 3 can't be rescued!. And they managed to keep R4 on Long Wave for a while!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Really? Nothing?

Pretty much. It’s read by a continuity announcer who’d be there any way . It’s a straight read so has minimal production costs other than the cost of the forecast itself . That’s produced by the Met Office and the I guess the BBC will have some sort of licence to broadcast it. I don’t think it’s produced specifically for that as it aso appears in the Met website so the costs will be small.
The BBC’s main weather contract is with Meteo and that does run into many millions. Those forecasts are reworked into TV and radio forecasts by forecasters employed by the BBC many of whom are ex Met Office . That is a big operation and the cost is significant. But because they are on air for hours a day - the network TV and regional TV forecasts must be longest straight live reads in broadcasting - the cost per hour is tiny.

Interesting article in the Telegraph today comparing the accuracy of BBC Meteo and Met apps

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/16/bbc-v-met-office-who-predicts-the-weather-better/

[oddoneout]

I understand that the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 continues to exist only because Radio 4 listeners want it, as it has some kind of ritual status, and their lobbying has preserved it. Technology has usurped its role as useful for sailors, merchant shipping et al. Why has Radio 4 succumbed to this, while Drama on 3 appears to be heading for the chop, despite arguments such as those so eloquently presented by FF?

The shipping forecast isn't entirely irrelevant to sea-faring traffic even with all the modern ways of doing the job. In the same way that it can be helpful to have radio alternatives(including through voluntary amateur radio groups) to mobile phones when dealing with land-based emergencies, the shipping forecast on radio may be the only available information in certain circumstances.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/features/has-the-reduced-shipping-forecast-changed-anyones-routine-152204

Unfortunately for radio drama it can't similarly be linked to 'real' benefits. In today's world if there aren't physical and measurable benefits to a given activity then it isn't deemed worthy of support - and increasingly not even then.

[kernelbogey]

Because it doesn’t cost anything and is in essence an artistic product - a form of poetry really.

Really? Nothing?

[Belgrove]

And let's not forget the early days of the Third, when a whole evening would be cleared for , say, Man and Superman.

It was last done on Radio 3 in 1996, worth a listen:

https://archive.org/details/man-and-superman

(And the wonderful NT production from 2015 can be found online, also with Ralph Feinnes as Jack Tanner).

[smittims]

And let's not forget the early days of the Third, when a whole evening would be cleared for , say, Man and Superman.

Done

[LMcD]

World Service drama did lots of World Theatre (although some were abridged) - partial list here. For example Sartre's "The Assassin", Beaumarchais' "The Marriage Of Figaro", Betti's "The Queen And The Rebels", Aristophanes' "Lysistrata", O'Neill's "Mourning Becomes Electra"... and lots of Shakespeare.

We even used to have decent, longer plays on R4, often in the Saturday Night Theatre or Monday Play slots.

Sadly, all gone now.

I have to confess that I find I no longer seem to have the mental or indeed physical stamina to listen to or watch plays that last 90 minutes or more, as I'm increasingly likely to nod off, only to then wake up in time to learn the name of the murderer, but not of his or her victim(s). At present, I can normally manage to stay awake for 50-minutes episodes and sub-60-minute classical works. In the case of Mahler, only the 1st and 4th symphonies are now likely to receive my uninterrupted or unfragmented attention.

[LMcD]

Paradoxically in fact it was when the BBC had the biggest mass audiences (60’s and 70 ) that its Arts output was at its peak . But it only had ITV as a competitor and that was full of people like Sir Denis Forman who ran Granada and also wrote books about Mozart. People like that have disappeared - fair enough I can play Mozart but I was (quite rightly) kept away from running a TV station.

Yes it’s overly obsessed with demographics but there has to be some way of determining who the audience is and social surveys and audience figures based on class gender and age are very consistent in their results . The audience for Radio 3 is mouth-wateringly (from an advertisers point of view ) made up of AB1s with a high discretionary spend as the kids have left home. Luckily for R3 (and indeed us ) they are not dying as early as some expected thirty years ago
The concern is the refreshment rate . Precisely the same concerns are shared by the National Trust and the RSPB . The intersection in cohort between these three is , I’m led to believe , significant .

No one uses the word “class “ in relation to programme making particularly as it’s so difficult to define. Is a salaried pensionable person doing a very routine low skill job in an office call centre middle class? Is a self employed builder going on three foreign holidays a year working class - and how likely are either to listen to Radio 3 - we just don’t know . We do know that a high proportion are Graduates but what does that mean these days, Plenty of “middle class” people watch EastEnders and I’m sure there are manual workers who listen to Radio 3 and 4 especially lorry drivers.
The holy grail of course are “unite the Nation “ moments like Morecambe and Wise , Dad’s Army , Gavin and Stacey et al.

In the old days many of them listened to Sheila Tracy aka 'The Truckers' Floozie' on Radio 2.

[Bella Kemp]

This is terrible news