Radio 3 schedule changes (‘edging away from speech')

[smittims]

Yes, I apologise, oddoneout, for any confusion. I always look ahead one week when planning recordings, and in my excitement over a brand new Radio 3 programme (NOT!) forgot momentarily I was doing that!

Radio 3 has made much of the term 'live' meaning ' they're actually playing as you hear them; something only we can do, that you can't get from your CDs.' There was also the (purely psychological) enjoyment of feeling one was, if vicariously, actually at Wigmore Hall or wherever, in line with the old BBC anouncement ' we are now taking you over to the Royal Albert Hall' . I used to find this an added pleasure with the Queen's Hall, Edinburgh broadcasts during the Festival.

This time I suppose they mean 'recorded at concerts, rater than edited studio sessions'. To be fair, CD companies have used this meaning for some years ('Beecham live at the Proms' etc. suggests something more exciting than yet another reissue of his EMI studio recording).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, I apologise, oddoneout, for any confusion. I always look ahead one week when planning recordings, and in my excitement over a brand new Radio 3 programme (NOT!) forgot momentarily I was doing that!

Radio 3 has made much of the term 'live' meaning ' they're actually playing as you hear them; something only we can do, that you can't get from your CDs.' There was also the (purely psychological) enjoyment of feeling one was, if vicariously, actually at Wigmore Hall or wherever, in line with the old BBC anouncement ' we are now taking you over to the Royal Albert Hall' . I used to find this an added pleasure with the Queen's Hall, Edinburgh broadcasts during the Festival.

This time I suppose they mean 'recorded at concerts, rater than edited studio sessions'. To be fair, CD companies have used this meaning for some years ('Beecham live at the Proms' etc. suggests something more exciting than yet another reissue of his EMI studio recording).

I would define “live “ in this specific context as any recording made with an Audience (sometimes without as happened a lot during lockdown ) where there has been no post performance editing. So the BBC Philharmonic performing and recording a concert in their Salford studios once and then broadcast later is live. I would even stretch a point and allow two back to back live evening performances to be edited together to count as live. Where I think credulity is stretched is if rehearsal recording is spliced in or worse retakes done post performance in an empty hall.
In the (very brief ) time I worked on Radio 3 I was always amazed about how little music editing was done even in studio recordings partly because it was difficult to do , partly because you could often hear it , and partly because it’s a bit of a cheat. It’s a lot easier now but it’s still a faff.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I would have like to post this before now – but I have an urgent situation which has prevented me from making much of a comment. I’m not sure I’ve seen mention of this (4 March 2024):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/message-from-new-bbc-chair-samir-shah

A few quotes (chosen because they can be picked out to justify the onward march of debasing quality, informing and educating in favour of – well, what we see happening now):

…..We must be the home for showcasing the full range of British culture and talent – geographically, of course, but also in terms of class and thought (in all its diversity), alongside race, gender and disability.
…..We are a thread that binds the fabric of society, a place where people from all walks of life, with every kind of view, can find something to enjoy…..

I presume the layers of the BBC have got the message, as in that communique and as otherwise conveyed, its consistent with recent trends anyway - and now we are seeing the results. (And, I know – we here are “from a walk of life” – as is probably apparent, my parents were working class so I qualify to be taken account of, per the OFCOM research (see below)).

A few days later (8 March) and an article by Richard Morrison in The Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...shah-x0wvl0q6n
“The BBC’s next battleground will be all about class”

I’m sorry I haven’t had the time to find a way of accessing this article out of the paywall (I was to explore one but had to leave off). The article ranges over the many difficulties facing the BBC – caught in the politically generated culture war by a government holding the funding power as a noose around its neck, by the licence fee raising expectations to be all things to all sectors of its audience, to the challenge of the licence fee itself, other delivery methods – streams, podcasts, etc etc . I think relevant to our interest it touches upon OFCOM research that finds from “working class” opinions (amongst other things):

“…..a general feeling that BBC programmes were “too dry and serious”…..”

The transformation of Radio 3 – well in my view on the destination to being Classic FM without the commerce, otherwise a convenient parking place for genres not at home on the organisation chart anywhere else (also saddled with surplus orchestras and chorus, importantly their cost – surely?). Also – yes, a remnant appearing at certain times in the schedule of what once was a station of worthwhile culture and education accessible to all, but not achieving a mass audience so worthy of a grudging, half-hearted support.

It seems to me, this is all in tune with the way the wind is blowing at the level of politics, decisions on funding the BBC and the willingness of the BBC to defend quality and what had been, in former times, its values. Time to listen to what remains on internet catch up, and find Classical Music broadcasting of worth from elsewhere.

(As an aside, I was asked recently to record a week’s listening for the listening figure process (can’t recall the exact organisation - feeds into the RAJAR or whatever they’re called). In my listening the Finnish station (internet access) yle featured a lot, I have to say, with a little WQXR and France Musique. R3 did feature - Composer of the Week, Record Review & extra, one or two specific concerts, Martin Handley on Sunday morning).

[eighthobstruction]

....well done....thanks CS....

[smittims]

Thanks, Heldenleben. I remember Stanford Robinson saying in an interview that he recalled many broadcast performances having not just no editing but no rehearsal. I think the ethos was that it was meant to be heard once only.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks, Heldenleben. I remember Stanford Robinson saying in an interview that he recalled many broadcast performances having not just no editing but no rehearsal. I think the ethos was that it was meant to be heard once only.

How much rehearsal do they get these days? - maybe just one unless it’s new repertoire. I think there’s a lot of quasi sight reading going on . On the other hand a lot of bands tour a work - meaning repeat performances . I’m convinced one of the reasons Opéra orchestras sound so good these days is that they really have the piece under their fingers by the end of a run.

[Serial_Apologist]

Classical Live was probably chosen because Classical Lives would either indicate too broad a compass or equivocally suggest that Classical music does indeed still live - rather like with those graffiti messages on walls after Charlie Parker's death reading "Bird Lives".

[oddoneout]

Classical Live was probably chosen because Classical Lives would either indicate too broad a compass or equivocally suggest that Classical music does indeed still live - rather like with those graffiti messages on walls after Charlie Parker's death reading "Bird Lives".

My first take was lives as in biographies... I suspect the title is meant to convey fresh and happening, and other such nonsense. After all, any indication of something approaching a concert format would be so stuffy and off putting, especially if it included whole versions of works from which the bite-size chunks come or, heaven forbid, "well known tunes".
Perhaps the inclusion of a Wigmore Hall (genuinely)live relay casts sufficient miasma to include whatever else follows in the programme slot - and the rest of the week.
I see that a new language is evolving to add to the generally poor quality of the online blurb

Tom foregrounds a recording

[Roslynmuse]

Interesting article with a passing reference to Radio 3 and the Proms. Although it is a broad brushstroke piece it captures well many of the thought processes that have led us to 'where we are now' regarding R3.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-love-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interesting article with a passing reference to Radio 3 and the Proms. Although it is a broad brushstroke piece it captures well many of the thought processes that have led us to 'where we are now' regarding R3.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-love-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/?

This is a quote from that article

“Music students used to be able to sign up for a degree where they could expect to perform classical music, analyse its structures and learn about its history. It was a given that they had enthusiasm for the object of their study. Nowadays, much time will be devoted to “problematising” this repertoire, the canon will be thoroughly reviled, and students will probably be taught that classical music is the cause of numerous social ills. It is a rare and brave soul who will admit they find this objectionable.”

A close relative has done a BA in music at Oxford Univ recently followed by an M.Mus at the Royal Academy and I can tell you that this “broad brushstroke “ is laughably inaccurate. It’s just not true. The amount of time they spent studying Brahms , Bach Beethoven , Schubert and Schoenberg amazed me.
They did study also RAP for the BA though. The Oxford BA was extremely academically demanding - much more so than my English Lang and Lit course of fifty years ago,

[Roslynmuse]

This is a quote from that article

A close relative has done a BA in music at Oxford Univ recently followed by an M.Mus at the Royal Academy and I can tell you that this “broad brushstroke “ is laughably inaccurate. It’s just not true. The amount of time they spent studying Brahms , Bach Beethoven , Schubert and Schoenberg amazed me.
They did study also RAP for the BA though. The Oxford BA was extremely academically demanding - much more so than my English Lang and Lit course of fifty years ago,

It does depend on the institution, however.

I meet potential postgrads and even potential doctoral students who have had educational experiences closer to those described in the article. And from personal experience I see a creeping towards it. It depends a lot on course leaders and whether they are trying to push a particular agenda. So, rather than being inaccurate, I would say it describes the extreme end of what is a sliding scale. One of the biggest differences between their experience and mine (forty years ago) is the emergence of modular teaching that effectively means that one can complete a course without encountering (for example) 'the canon', or doing any analysis, or studying research methods. Choice is good when it still provides a balanced diet. It could be argued, of course, that forty years ago I didn't have a balanced diet either - merely History, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Twentieth-century studies, pastiche and original composition, performance, research, orchestration...

Getting slightly closer to the thread topic, it's also striking how few (music) students are aware of Radio 3 - let alone listen to it!

[Ein Heldenleben]

It does depend on the institution, however.

I meet potential postgrads and even potential doctoral students who have had educational experiences closer to those described in the article. And from personal experience I see a creeping towards it. It depends a lot on course leaders and whether they are trying to push a particular agenda. So, rather than being inaccurate, I would say it describes the extreme end of what is a sliding scale. One of the biggest differences between their experience and mine (forty years ago) is the emergence of modular teaching that effectively means that one can complete a course without encountering (for example) 'the canon', or doing any analysis, or studying research methods. Choice is good when it still provides a balanced diet. It could be argued, of course, that forty years ago I didn't have a balanced diet either - merely History, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Twentieth-century studies, pastiche and original composition, performance, research, orchestration...

Getting slightly closer to the thread topic, it's also striking how few (music) students are aware of Radio 3 - let alone listen to it!

yes it’ll vary from institution to institution. Coincidentally just read a Private Eye story about a jazz tutor forced to resign after racism allegations - ones very much denied . Difficult to see how one could survive 40 years as a racist in any academic field let alone one where African American music is at the core. I’ve also read that the OU music course is very canon / music analysis light and very culturo-social analysis heavy.
But there is still a lot of trad academic teaching out there, I watched a live performance /composition class at the RAM a few years back and was astounded at how publicly critical some of the comments were - very rigorous indeed with zero evidence of snowflakery. And it was all about music.
The rise of the streamers explains the demise of R3 . In the days of limited free tracks Spotify was great for classical music as there were so many different recordings of Beethoven symphonies for example . The problem came , I’m told , if you had a taste for Stockhausen.

[french frank]

The rise of the streamers explains the demise of R3 . In the days of limited free tracks Spotify was great for classical music as there were so many different recordings of Beethoven symphonies for example . The problem came , I’m told , if you had a taste for Stockhausen.

But the music was only ever part of what R3 offered on classical music. Once R3 got rid of the serious speech/discussion/interview music programming and the authoritative presentation it was bound to be outdone by so many music-only sources.

[Serial_Apologist]

yes it’ll vary from institution to institution. Coincidentally just read a Private Eye story about a jazz tutor forced to resign after racism allegations - ones very much denied . Difficult to see how one could survive 40 years as a racist in any academic field let alone one where African American music is at the core. I’ve also read that the OU music course is very canon / music analysis light and very culturo-social analysis heavy.
But there is still a lot of trad academic teaching out there, I watched a live performance /composition class at the RAM a few years back and was astounded at how publicly critical some of the comments were - very rigorous indeed with zero evidence of snowflakery. And it was all about music.
The rise of the streamers explains the demise of R3 . In the days of limited free tracks Spotify was great for classical music as there were so many different recordings of Beethoven symphonies for example . The problem came , I’m told , if you had a taste for Stockhausen.

Recent correct answers to classical music excerpts on University Challenge have often left me challenged over what, to me, seem highly obscure works, suggest that in some education institutions classical music research is being carried out at high standards. If anything it is the more familiar quotes that once seemed like giveaways that often leave entire student panels flummoxed. I'm often left struggling for explanations these days.

[Nick Armstrong]

Has Free Thinking moved to R4, or simply disappeared up the new Controller’s fundament?