Radio 3 schedule changes (‘edging away from speech')

[Barbirollians]

Interview ? Fawning you mean !

[Serial_Apologist]

Interview ? Fawning you mean !

L'après-midi d'un fawn?

[LMcD]

L'après-midi d'un fawn?

Oh deer.....

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh deer.....

[LeWoiDeWeigate]

Of course, it depends what you mean by classical music. Even the Met's sell-out operas seem to be brand new works. Not in itself a bad thing, but classical? I imagine people who listen regularly to a few current R3 programmes think they're listening to classical music.

Indeed it does and I think branding Radio 3 as a 'classical' music station is utterly incorrect. Even the more accepted phrase 'Western Art Music' doesn't really apply to R3 because that then leaves out the pieces that inform the Western Art tradition ('world/global' music, folk, jazz, etc.) and those things that are built on it. BTW, Kevin Puts' fabulous 'The Hours' is a case in point from the Met....

I'm particularly peeved at the unwelcome re-appearance of 'Friday Night is Music Night' - it is both trite and an anachronism. An opportunity could have been taken to increase output of other very underserved genres - for example, the current 'world' offering is pathetic IMvvvvHO and has now been relegated to a graveyard slot 21.30 on a Saturday.... ugh.

I didn't hear all of the changes - Drama on 3 for me is an utter jewel in the crown especially as R4 seems to be moving away from longer-form drama of-late so I hope that is being left alone.

[french frank]

I think branding Radio 3 as a 'classical' music station is utterly incorrect. Even the more accepted phrase 'Western Art Music' doesn't really apply to R3 because that then leaves out the pieces that inform the Western Art tradition ('world/global' music, folk, jazz, etc.) and those things that are built on it. BTW, Kevin Puts' fabulous 'The Hours' is a case in point from the Met....

My own (so?) definition of classical music would be the range of so called 'art music' from medieval to now (including Kevin Puts), but two comments:

a) the balance of R3's output is changing in that that range of music is gradually being lessened by such programmes as Unclassified, Sound of Gaming,Tearjerker and Sound of CInema (and, should they reappear in some form, Piano Flow, Happy Harmonies) and the regular inclusion of such music on hybrid programmes like Late Junction and Night Tracks.

Friday Night is Music Night is a Radio 2 programme - more 'non classical' if it stays true to its heritage. And R2's Later with Jools Holland moves to R3 as Earlier with Jools Holland. I'm by no means convinced that his programme will satisfy the demands of Radio 3's jazz lovers.

b) As for R3's 'brand' as a classical music station, it would be correct to describe it as 'the BBC's classical music station' on the grounds that there is seldom any classical music anywhere else on the BBC's national output. I was never opposed to there being more jazz and world music, though I would be less keen on that now since so many 'alternative musics'are included atthe expense of classical (wide definition) music.

I didn't hear all of the changes - Drama on 3 for me is an utter jewel in the crown especially as R4 seems to be moving away from longer-form drama of-late so I hope that is being left alone.

Without looking it up, I think the only change announced was a slightly later slot for it.

[LeWoiDeWeigate]

a) the balance of R3's output is changing in that that range of music is gradually being lessened by such programmes as Unclassified, Sound of Gaming,Tearjerker and Sound of CInema (and, should they reappear in some form, Piano Flow, Happy Harmonies) and the regular inclusion of such music on hybrid programmes like Late Junction and Night Tracks.

I quite like Unclassified, have been introduced to some fabulous music through it and I think there is a place for art music that isn't exclusively from the traditional Western European canon. I've been to several gigs at Bold Tendencies that have mixed music that would fit Unclassified and traditional WAM and feel richer/more informed for the experience. I didn't like it all at first hearing but that is the point of listening. Both of the 'Sound of' programmes for me could be at-most monthly - there simply isn't the variety or breadth of output to warrant a weekly outing.

And R2's Later with Jools Holland moves to R3 as Earlier with Jools Holland. I'm by no means convinced that his programme will satisfy the demands of Radio 3's jazz lovers.

Yep. Cannot STAND Jools Holland. I thought the original Jazz FM did a pretty good job in covering the genre but that has long since gone (and never made any money...).

b) As for R3's 'brand' as a classical music station, it would be correct to describe it as 'the BBC's classical music station' on the grounds that there is seldom any classical music anywhere else on the BBC's national output. I was never opposed to there being more jazz and world music, though I would be less keen on that now since so many 'alternative musics'are included atthe expense of classical (wide definition) music.

I still bristle at the term 'classical' because I listen to SO little classical music yet Radio 3 is on all day! I understand that much of the great listening public won't care for the classifications but it is important because it is the wide variety of output on 3 that makes it unique and for me, THAT is the crux of the 'brand.' Simply stating that Radio 3 is unlike any other station and plays a pretty-much undefined set of music that cannot be heard anywhere else, cross-genre and cross-history would pique my interest but in these days of RAJAR beauty contests we seem to lack the chutzpah to boldly state that for fear of being branded elitist...

[french frank]

I understand that much of the great listening public won't care for the classifications but it is important because it is the wide variety of output on 3 that makes it unique and for me, THAT is the crux of the 'brand.'

Radio 2's 'brand' used to be, explicitly, that it played the widest range of music. Now easy listening concert music and easy listening jazz seem to be included in what Radio 3 is "for". Plus, of course, it still broadcasts a type of long-form drama not covered by R4. Until it doesn't and that gets completely dropped too.

[Serial_Apologist]

Radio 2's 'brand' used to be, explicitly, that it played the widest range of music. Now easy listening concert music and easy listening jazz seem to be included in what Radio 3 is "for". Plus, of course, it still broadcasts a type of long-form drama not covered by R4. Until it doesn't and that gets completely dropped too.

I feel sure somebody at least will have said this at some stage on the forum, but it occurs to me that those who have been in charge for quite some time now at Radio 3, at least 30 years, have been trying to find some way of surreptitiously sneaking in a programming agenda based on the notion of ending the supposed gulf between "high" and "low" art, first put into practice in the 1960s. Pop Art was supplanting Abstraction in the visual arts, and composers such as Luciano Berio and Bernt Aloys Zimmerman, who had been composing the most complex, mathematically-based scores ever conceived, had begun setting Beatles songs and incorporating jazz and free extemporisation into their scores. A slippery slope of permissiveness on behalf of the amateur of little musical knowledge, and access through the hallowed portals of exclusivity to those once thought elevated heights of taste and discernment previously enjoyed by a privileged few with servants and time on their hands, would break down class divisions in the aesthetic realm and help contribute to the levelling up process that has now become a political cliché.

The idea (however impracticable in the long term) would serve two purposes: 1) Co-opting the radical leftist view that saw "high art" as needing to be made available to "the masses", thereby undermining the idea that radical social change was needed as a pre-requisite to mass involvement in its creation; and 2) Conceding the capitalist-defined reality that commodification of the arts of all periods is tantamount to levelling out their value, inasmuch as funding them primarily comes down to affordability in consumer-driven market terms, (records and concerts in the case of music, auctions for sculpture and paintings). Thus affordability becomes for the dissemination of mass culture the main criterion determining what, and what not to give the public. Once the principle that artistic success resides less in qualities decided by academics and aestheticians than how much it sells for, and catch-up funding dependent on tax-funded grant aid whenever affordable, there remains little or no pretext for extolling the promotion of classical music by any state owned institution, such as the BBC.

[smittims]

Indeed, S-A, I've long suspected that something of the sort is behind all this, though I see it from a different angle. I think it's part of the deep-seated anti-intellectual philistinism in British life and culture. Many people in positions of influence suspect the arts and an intellectual approach to them because they feel it's out of their control ; this is why they prefer mass entertainment and mass advertising , as a way of controlling the masses and , by extension, their spending and their voting. So the dumbing-down of Radio 3 suits their purpose, as does the cultural relativism (in the guise of vox populi ) saying 'who says Beethoven is better than Ed Sheeran? you can't prove it.'

[french frank]

1) Co-opting the radical leftist view that saw "high art" as needing to be made available to "the masses"

2) Conceding the capitalist-defined reality that commodification of the arts of all periods is tantamount to levelling out their value, inasmuch as funding them primarily comes down to affordability in consumer-driven market terms

1) In itself an intriguing idea. R3's "high art" gets thrown in free with the TV licence so based purely on 'affordability' it is at least as available as television. Actually broadcasting it on television would also make it available but, erm ... Is availability the same as accessibility? The BBC agenda seems to be to make Radio 3 'accessible' and that means introducing all sorts of programmes that are not "high art" (thus making "high art" less available). In fact, what is it that makes "high art" different from "popular culture"? To Smittims's comparison: what makes Beethoven "high art" and Ed Sheeran "popular culture"?

2) Comparisons have been made between how little it can cost to go to the opera (or a Proms concert) and how much is paid to go to a pop concert/festival (or for a footbal season ticket).

[french frank]

Irony not dead? Or? Letter in this week's Radio Times:

3's A MAGIC NUMBER

"Goodbye Classic FM. The improvement in standards at Radio 3 has been absolutely amazing and I shall never again need to listen to Classic FM overnight. Radio 3 is magical."

Or has he just discovered TTN?

[LMcD]

Irony not dead? Or? Letter in this week's Radio Times:

3's A MAGIC NUMBER

"Goodbye Classic FM. The improvement in standards at Radio 3 has been absolutely amazing and I shall never again need to listen to Classic FM overnight. Radio 3 is magical."

Or has he just discovered TTN?

A prematurely published letter dated April 1st?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Indeed, S-A, I've long suspected that something of the sort is behind all this, though I see it from a different angle. I think it's part of the deep-seated anti-intellectual philistinism in British life and culture. Many people in positions of influence suspect the arts and an intellectual approach to them because they feel it's out of their control ; this is why they prefer mass entertainment and mass advertising , as a way of controlling the masses and , by extension, their spending and their voting. So the dumbing-down of Radio 3 suits their purpose, as does the cultural relativism (in the guise of vox populi ) saying 'who says Beethoven is better than Ed Sheeran? you can't prove it.'

You can’t “prove it” because artistic content and quality lies beyond proof.If you really wanted to get into philosophy you can’t “prove “ anything outside proof in logic and some mathematics.All you do is approach higher degrees of certainty through trial and experiment .
The only way the artistic worth of any creative product can be assessed is through critical interaction through publication, review , seminar or even an Internet forum. And that process has to have some shared assumptions for it to work.Those assumptions have broken down in quite a lot of modern criticism which , iIn my view , has followed the blind (though quite interesting ) alleys of structuralism and literary theory.
Interestingly when it comes to music and theatre performance ,rather than content , criticism and review is still fairly lively and still has quite a lot of Arnoldian assumptions behind it.
I can’t prove that Beethovens Fifth is “better “ than a Sheeran song partly because like is not being compared with like. I can show it has a vastly more complex structure , more daring harmonies , bold use of tonality way beyond Ed’s capabilities. I’m pretty sure I could demonstrate the same thing in a Beethoven Bagatelle.
Where it gets interesting is when pop and rock songs are from time to time “better” than quite a few classical “art “ songs.

[french frank]

You can’t “prove it” because artistic content and quality lies beyond proof.

I would love it if criticism of R3 got away from any notion about what is 'better' than something else, artistically. It may be possible to demonstrate it but in the end it's irrelevant. You make the point yourself when you say 'pop and rock songs are from time to time “better” than quite a few classical “art “ songs. That may be so, but pop songs, good or bad, have their place(s) on BBC radio and so do "art" songs, good or bad (in whose opinion?).

Great pop songs should not be regularly on R3 as long as great classical music is routinely excluded from other services on the grounds that 'it's what R3 does'. Instead of that R3 gets dumped with Friday Night is Music Night and an R2 jazz programme. Generic broadcasting has its advantages.

I'm not sure which "art" songs within that genre are judged "bad".