The Many Diagnoses of Robert Schumann

[JasonPalmer]

Very interesting stuff... being a little mad myself i find this stuff fascinating...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zssr

[gradus]

Thanks for posting this I hadn't heard of it before.

[Serial_Apologist]

I am wondering if this was part of a series. There was another programme a few weeks ago titled The Problem with Mendelssohn, or some such title, on at around the same time as this one.

[smittims]

It's sobering to think how many composers died young by today's standards: Purcell, Mozart, Schubert, Bellini, Chopin, Mendelssohn,, all leaving open the question of what they might have given us had they had careers as long as Monteverdi, Schutz, Verdi,Vaughan Williams, Havergal Brian...

[kernelbogey]

I am wondering if this was part of a series. There was another programme a few weeks ago titled The Problem with Mendelssohn, or some such title, on at around the same time as this one.

I think that one is Mahan Esfahani doing his devil's advocate thing.

[oddoneout]

I am wondering if this was part of a series. There was another programme a few weeks ago titled The Problem with Mendelssohn, or some such title, on at around the same time as this one.

Are you thinking of this, which is a rather different "problem"?

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/classical-forum/talking-about-music/22694-mahan-esfahani-s-problem-with

[oddoneout]

It's sobering to think how many composers died young by today's standards: Purcell, Mozart, Schubert, Bellini, Chopin, Mendelssohn,, all leaving open the question of what they might have given us had they had careers as long as Monteverdi, Schutz, Verdi,Vaughan Williams, Havergal Brian...

The assumption with that view is that they would have continued to produce work to the same standard. Going "before their time" means enjoying the best, even if less than one would like, without the difficulty of someone not continuing an early stellar trajectory.
Genius sometimes takes a toll on mental health as well - the kind of illnesses that carried off such composers would now not do so, but would greater longevity have come at another price?

[Bryn]

Did we discuss this when it was first broadcast, a couple of years ago?

[richardfinegold]

The assumption with that view is that they would have continued to produce work to the same standard. Going "before their time" means enjoying the best, even if less than one would like, without the difficulty of someone not continuing an early stellar trajectory.
Genius sometimes takes a toll on mental health as well - the kind of illnesses that carried off such composers would now not do so, but would greater longevity have come at another price?

One wonders if modern psychiatry would have deprived us of great art had it been available. Would Tchaikovsky Prozac Symphony be as interesting as his Pathetique? It’s like imagining how different the Art World would have been if Claude Monet had his cataracts removed

[Ein Heldenleben]

One wonders if modern psychiatry would have deprived us of great art had it been available. Would Tchaikovsky Prozac Symphony be as interesting as his Pathetique? It’s like imagining how different the Art World would have been if Claude Monet had his cataracts removed

In the case of Schumann if the retrospective diagnosis of bipolar disorder and syphilis is correct then both would have been treatable and he would almost certainly have had many more years of productive life. The idea that tackling mental illness or (especially ) a physical disease like syphilis hampers creativity has no credible scientific evidence to back it. If Schumann had been suffering from schizophrenia or very severe depression than treatment let alone “cure” would have be a great deal more difficult. Loss of creativity is not listed amongst Prozac’s known side effects and is often prescribed for conditions other than depression like anxiety. One of the known possible risks of severe depression is suicide. Another known consequence of depression is often an inability to work or find meaning in it . So on a balance of risk Tschaikovsky would have been much better off having treatment possibly including drugs and talking therapy for his (probably severe) depression. Obviously those options on 19th century Russia weren’t available.

[smittims]

Alan Bennett makes this point in his play about Kafka. Kafka's notorious father tells the audience they should praise, not blame him, as he was responsible for Kafka's inspiration. WH Auden talked about a 'pressure-cooker' effect , where suffering or repression was a spur to artistic creation.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Alan Bennett makes this point in his play about Kafka. Kafka's notorious father tells the audience they should praise, not blame him, as he was responsible for Kafka's inspiration. WH Auden talked about a 'pressure-cooker' effect , where suffering or repression was a spur to artistic creation.

Yep if only my parents had been nastier to me I would have been Beethoven. There’s just no evidence for Auden’s theory other than anecdote . There are plenty of great creative artists who had happy (ish) childhoods and indeed contented adult lives and plenty of people who’ve really suffered who aren’t that creative. There’s some evidence of a genetic link to artistic creativity, a lot of evidence that support from parents in childhood is important especially for arts with a long apprenticeship , and there’s also the need for an audience or market. An audience that is intelligent and discriminating is even better.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yep if only my parents had been nastier to me I would have been Beethoven. There’s just no evidence for Auden’s theory other than anecdote . There are plenty of great creative artists who had happy (ish) childhoods and indeed contented adult lives and plenty of people who’ve really suffered who aren’t that creative. There’s some evidence of a genetic link to artistic creativity, a lot of evidence that support from parents in childhood is important especially for arts with a long apprenticeship , and there’s also the need for an audience or market. An audience that is intelligent and discriminating is even better.

Reminds me of the joke about the two gays in a pub. One says to the other, "My mother made me a homosexual", to which the other replies, "If I gave her some wool, would she make make me one too?"

I often wonder if I would have arrived at my left wing beliefs had I been brought up differently.

[smittims]

To be fair to Auden, I don't think he said that an unhappy childhood was essential to creativity, only that it was influential in some cases. He did know about Haydn and Schubert.

It's like the two people looking at new paintings for sale in L'Avventura : 'I think this one needs to starve a bit first'.

[richardfinegold]

In the case of Schumann if the retrospective diagnosis of bipolar disorder and syphilis is correct then both would have been treatable and he would almost certainly have had many more years of productive life. The idea that tackling mental illness or (especially ) a physical disease like syphilis hampers creativity has no credible scientific evidence to back it. If Schumann had been suffering from schizophrenia or very severe depression than treatment let alone “cure” would have be a great deal more difficult. Loss of creativity is not listed amongst Prozac’s known side effects and is often prescribed for conditions other than depression like anxiety. One of the known possible risks of severe depression is suicide. Another known consequence of depression is often an inability to work or find meaning in it . So on a balance of risk Tschaikovsky would have been much better off having treatment possibly including drugs and talking therapy for his (probably severe) depression. Obviously those options on 19th century Russia weren’t available.

Well, there is the case of Edvard Munch, whose Depression apparently went into remission decades before he died. The work that he did after this happy event is but a pale shadow of what he had produced previously . Clearly Monet’s cataracts must have affected his perception.
Tchaikovsky, and many of the Great Composers, may have had some degree of Bipolar instead of pure Depression. Many of them, including Beethoven, described periods where they were amazingly productive alternating with times when they felt utter despair that they might not compose again.
Do we know for certain that Schumann had Neurosyphillis? Certainly that has long been speculated and he was one of the models for Adrian Kronauer in Dr Faustus, as well as Schubert, Smetena, and a few others. Thomas Mann speculated that in the early stages the Spirochetes tickled and stimulated the brain before they damaged it.
You state that there is no evidence that Prozac stifles creativity. I don’t know how one measures creativity. Take the Munch example. He produced a great body of work when he went into remission. Most people find it is of less interest than his early works, but that is subjective. Perhaps future generations will revise that conventional wisdom.
I am not advocating leaving Mental Illness untreated in the interests of promoting Artistic Expression. I am just making the not original observation that Artists suffering from Mental Illness (or those using Psychoactive Drugs) occasionally produce interesting works that seems greatly influenced by their Mental State