Drama on Radio 3

[french frank]

Honestly they are so snowed under with thousands of scripts they haven’t got time for that level of tinkering.

Not sure. There used to be a lot of helpful information for indies who wanted to tender for programme commissions: audience profiles, Rajar stats for the programmes, plus general information about the station. I presume it's still available for those who Need to Know. If it was available to us we quoted it - on the forum or the website news - until it all disappeared.

In the same way, the BBC Trust was a route open to us to make our views known and even discuss with Trust members in person. Plus they regularly published Service Licences which gave a good idea of what was expected of Radio 3 and what funding was available to them year on year. Even the Governors held meetings for the public to attend and air their views (though you had to submit your questions in advance and yours might not be chosen).

[smittims]

Your first post struck a few chords with me, frankie.

I suppose I couldn't reasonably object to being called a purist when it comes to stage plays. I don't even tolerate cuts in Shakespeare, let alone anachronistic stagings. I think the only way to understand any classic play is to do it as the author would have done it, or wanted . So often these 're-imaginings' contain dialogue inferior to the original , and (this of all things especially irritates) some political coercion, telling us what to think about some present-day situation, though of course they don't admit that plainly, which (yes , which! ) I think dishonest.

And I defy them to show that these re-vampings really are what 'everyone' wants. I've a feeling that they appeal only to a minority of the chattering classes who want to be heard admiring the latest fashion.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not sure. There used to be a lot of helpful information for indies who wanted to tender for programme commissions: audience profiles, Rajar stats for the programmes, plus general information about the station. I presume it's still available for those who Need to Know. If it was available to us we quoted it - on the forum or the website news - until it all disappeared.

In the same way, the BBC Trust was a route open to us to make our views known and even discuss with Trust members in person. Plus they regularly published Service Licences which gave a good idea of what was expected of Radio 3 and what funding was available to them year on year. Even the Governors held meetings for the public to attend and air their views (though you had to submit your questions in advance and yours might not be chosen).

I think a lot of that information now comes in briefing days done by the relevant department. At one stage I was a (very lowly) commissioner and you were set targets (albeit rather loose ones) on engagement with the indie sector . Then I was on the other side and the one thing that struck me was how rapidly commissioning specs and demands changed, Its also very hard to get hold of detailed info on audiences unless you have former colleagues on the inside who can literally find it at the touch of a button.
On a general point even when I was on the inside I found it very difficult to get hold of detailed Radio stats other than the publicly available quarterly Rajars - they seemed much less open about them on TV. I came to the conclusion that because so much Radio is presenter (virtually all of Radio 2 and 1 ) led they realised that presenters would be alarmed by sliding numbers. Different now because the radio audience measured by Rajar is (apparently) falling across the board.
Am I right in thinking that Rajar does include DAB but doesn’t include Sounds? If that’s the case the figures are becoming more and more inaccurate. I listen on Sounds a lot often time shifting by a minute or so sometimes more . Sometimes rewinding to check or relisten.

[french frank]

And I defy them to show that these re-vampings really are what 'everyone' wants. I've a feeling that they appeal only to a minority of the chattering classes who want to be heard admiring the latest fashion.

I recognise that part of Radio 3's remit is to support the creative industries and R3 has limited ways of supporting writers, new drama (original or 'updating for the 21st century') being the main one. Crudely, this is employing writers, as they employ musicians (composers and performers). But the station's music output is almost entirely 'classical' or existing modern works rather than new commissions. Compared with music, there is little airtime for drama, so my feeling is that the emphasis for Drama on 3 should be as it is for music: 'classical' or existing modern. That's why I was pleased to see that adaptations of novels are now out of favour.

Point 1: If Radio 3 doesn't commission new plays, what other part of BBC broadcast output will feature them when BBC 'drama' tends to be (I speak from ignorance here, you understand) series or serials rather than 'plays'? The Archers comes under the heading of 'drama' for example. So Radio 3 can step in, albeit that the plays are audio only.

Point 2: when Classic FM was started, it recognised a gap in the market: classical music for a more casual, less dedicated audience than the one R3 catered for. I draw a veil over R3's current music policy, but merely point out that there is a gap in the market for broadcast 'theatre', particularly the vast canon of world theatre. For the BBC it is an expensive genre - but if they aren't going to cover it regularly on television, radio is at least a cheaper option (R3's current guide price £15,500 - £18,500 per hour).

[Ein Heldenleben]

I recognise that part of Radio 3's remit is to support the creative industries and R3 has limited ways of supporting writers, new drama (original or 'updating for the 21st century') being the main one. Crudely, this is employing writers, as they employ musicians (composers and performers). But the station's music output is almost entirely 'classical' or existing modern works rather than new commissions. Compared with music, there is little airtime for drama, so my feeling is that the emphasis for Drama on 3 should be as it is for music: 'classical' or existing modern. That's why I was pleased to see that adaptations of novels are now out of favour.

Point 1: If Radio 3 doesn't commission new plays, what other part of BBC broadcast output will feature them when BBC 'drama' tends to be (I speak from ignorance here, you understand) series or serials rather than 'plays'? The Archers comes under the heading of 'drama' for example. So Radio 3 can step in, albeit that the plays are audio only.

Point 2: when Classic FM was started, it recognised a gap in the market: classical music for a more casual, less dedicated audience than the one R3 catered for. I draw a veil over R3's current music policy, but merely point out that there is a gap in the market for broadcast 'theatre', particularly the vast canon of world theatre. For the BBC it is an expensive genre - but if they aren't going to cover it regularly on television, radio is at least a cheaper option (R3's current guide price £15,500 - £18,500 per hour).

How can you make an hour of Radio drama for that money? That can’t be the total cost. That wouldn’t cover two days of studio time let alone the thesps and writer.

[french frank]

How can you make an hour of Radio drama for that money? That can’t be the total cost. That wouldn’t cover two days of studio time let alone the thesps and writer.

S'wat they're quoting, 74' -189', "usually 89' "). Seems a lot less than they used to offer (if memory serves - certainly no more than it was several years ago. I may have a note of that somewhere). Maybe they hope no one will tender? "Let's call the whole thing off"?

[Ein Heldenleben]

S'wat they're quoting, 74' -189', "usually 89' "). Seems a lot less than they used to offer (if memory serves - certainly no more than it was several years ago. I may have a note of that somewhere). Maybe they hope no one will tender? "Let's call the whole thing off"?

What’s ‘ 74’-189’ , usually 89” ‘ ?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Doing a back of fag packet calculation . An established writer gets £100 per minute for two tx’s . So that’s £6,000 for a 60’ min play . Actors are £300 a day for 2 txs . So say ten actors , all pros who can do an hour in a day that’s another £3,000. Say £1,000 for original music - could be a lot more. That makes £10,000.
Where I’m struggling is studio hire. A proper drama studio with 3 experienced operators has got to be pushing a thousand an hour . A basic voice over studio is about £200 in central London. So that’s £ 18,000 without paying the producer / director , PA , office costs, Maybe the indies have got the studio costs down in some way - if so good luck to them.
As a comparison Wild Isles was rumoured to have a £3 million per hour budget. A million an hour for TV drama would be at the lower end.

[french frank]

What’s ‘ 74’-189’ , usually 89” ‘ ?

Typo: 74 mins to 179 mins, usually 89 mins

Your other calcs probably correct.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Typo: 74 mins to 179 mins, usually 89 mins

Your other calcs probably correct.

Thanks . I haven’t worked in drama for 40 years but when I did a 90 minuter took 2 studio days - with possibly a shorter second day . That would be with absolutely top pros who rarely retake. If they are doing those for £18k I can only think they must have found a way of massively reducing studio costs. I don’t see how because if anything the effects production in high end Radio drama is way better than it used to be.

[french frank]

Thanks . I haven’t worked in drama for 40 years but when I did a 90 minuter took 2 studio days - with possibly a shorter second day . That would be with absolutely top pros who rarely retake. If they are doing those for £18k I can only think they must have found a way of massively reducing studio costs. I don’t see how because if anything the effects production in high end Radio drama is way better than it used to be.

You did locate my source, did you? Otherwise I can PM you the url.

[Ein Heldenleben]

You did locate my source, did you? Otherwise I can PM you the url.

Yes I found a relatively recent commissioning brief - can’t say I’m over- tempted for that sort of money.

[french frank]

I finally tracked down one of the sources I used years ago (actually 2009), a parliametary publication The efficiency of radio production at the BBC giving the cost of drama on Radio 3. These figures are much closer to what I remember. The catch is that it's not at all certain that these figures and the ones quoted on the recent commissioning brief are at all comparable

The 2009 cost per hour of Radio 3's drama is median £23,965, range £16,752 - £24,512 (the middle 50%).

As I thought, a full-length two-hour play would have cost close to £50,000. So, 15 years later, what does the current guide price of £15,500 - £18,500 per hour include?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I finally tracked down one of the sources I used years ago (actually 2009), a parliametary publication The efficiency of radio production at the BBC giving the cost of drama on Radio 3. These figures are much closer to what I remember. The catch is that it's not at all certain that these figures and the ones quoted on the recent commissioning brief are at all comparable

The 2009 cost per hour of Radio 3's drama is median £23,965, range £16,752 - £24,512 (the middle 50%).

As I thought, a full-length two-hour play would have cost close to £50,000. So, 15 years later, what does the current guide price of £15,500 - £18,500 per hour include?

Probably the fact that the 2009 guide cost is the total in house cost . That would be thirty percent higher than the budget offered to indies and indeed in-house production. That total covers the cost of overheads - running the channel , the transmission, the overheads of management , HR , finance , marketing etc .
Mind you I could be completely wrong.

[french frank]

Probably the fact that the 2009 guide cost is the total in house cost . That would be thirty percent higher than the budget offered to indies and indeed in-house production. That total covers the cost of overheads - running the channel , the transmission, the overheads of management , HR , finance , marketing etc .
Mind you I could be completely wrong.

That makes sense. I think I did turn up some other figures more in line with the current ones, and probably comparable. They suggested payments had been fairly stable for a few years now i.e. hadn't increased much, if at all, with inflation. Not unexpected, I suppose.