What do radio listeners want?

[french frank]

The BBC is great with its market research on contemporary lifestyles, listening habits and the various audience profile analyses. I wondered what they had 'discovered' that might explain certain apparent changes to the nature of Radio 3.

Have they found that 'speech and music don't mix'? For example, the 2010 strategy review proposed cuts in its 'music talks' , while people have noted very good programmes on Radio 4 (the 'speech' station). The Saturday music feature has not been commissioned in the latest round. Discovering Music was reduced to an occasional concert interval feature, from which slot it might easily disappear eventually. Interval features are now 'too expensive' for new ones to be commissioned. The Wire is 'being rested' while Drama on 3 has been moved to a late slot (next Sunday's play will end at midnight). Jazz File/Jazz Library have both been axed (there never has been a world music 'discussion' programme, though the nearest thing - World Routes - has been axed). One Early Music Show has been axed - which was speech-based, while containing musical illustrations.

The stress has been on increasing the 'live' and specially recorded music: repeats of the lunchtime concerts twice a week - including the EMS slot, music in the concert intervals, Live in Concert in the Drama on 3 slot.

Even if Radio 4 fills an occasional gap, it certainly won't tackle some of the more challenging, specialist work.

Is this really about financial cuts or is the aim to change Radio 3 from a wide ranging arts station into a 'minority interest' music station? And does this respond to what the semi-cultured, less literate wallpaper music listeners want?

[BBMmk2]

Dare I write the first post to0 this rather interesting thread(or could be). I think it's a mixture of things. The BBC are trying to ';popularise' Radio 3, at the expense of doing without quite high calibre quality programmes, in order to have 'bums on seats'.

one programme I am not sorryto see go is World Routes, which has never seemed right on this station. It would be great to have more eleitist programmes, high art type programmes as well. Something to stimulate the mind. But the BBC just seem to be on course for disaster, and audiences will leave this station I their droves!

[french frank]

Thanks BBM I feel rather differently about World Routes because I feel that, potentially, it could have been (and sometimes was) the more appropriate world music programme, delving into global traditional musics which - as far as I can judge - are of less interest to world music enthusiasts (and therefore less popular) than contemporary 'urban' world based on fusions and modern popular styles &c. (Or am I quite adrift on this?)

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks BBM I feel rather differently about World Routes because I feel that, potentially, it could have been (and sometimes was) the more appropriate world music programme, delving into global traditional musics which - as far as I can judge - are of less interest to world music enthusiasts (and therefore less popular) than contemporary 'urban' world based on fusions and modern popular styles &c. (Or am I quite adrift on this?)

I would imagine the latter to make up the bulk of Radio 1's output, which I never listen to, (though perhaps as a relatively open-eared listener I should? Mr GG?).

It's very difficult for me to figure out what Radio 3 thinks it's trying to do, apart either from chasing the tail of Classic fm, to gain extra listeners, or so it thinks, or making such a pigs ear of the wavelength that those in charge will just give up on Radio 3 altogether and redeploy or pension off RW and his merry men and women. The Proms would then be privatised, or taken on by Kensington & Chelsea council, government subsidised to keep tickets cheap.

[Russ]

Is this really about financial cuts or is the aim to change Radio 3 from a wide ranging arts station into a 'minority interest' music station?

Very interesting question. My hunch is that financial cuts are probably at the root of this, although why one or a few talking heads/guests in a studio should be any more expensive than a typical R3 music programme I'm not sure. R4 has been doing a lot more 'speaking about and around music' programmes over the last few years (Mark Damazer cleverly spotting a 'gap' in R3's coverage), and R4's current controller Gwyneth Williams has been upfront about her desire to increase R4's arts coverage, but this will tend to mean topical stuff, or at least about recent 'popular music' history, and there is little or no extra space available in the R4 schedule, particularly for a new regular strand. The trend to cut speech from R3 does seem to be ramping up, though, and one wonders over the future existence of Night Waves and The Essay.

I'm happy to leave the debate about R3's musical content and strategy to others, but in my view it is only the inclusion and retention of a significant proportion of speech that keeps R3 distinctive.

Russ

[french frank]

(Mark Damazer cleverly spotting a 'gap' in R3's coverage)

Checking my records, I see I wrote to MD about this in 2006 and asked whether there were (secret) plans for Radio 4 to divest Radio 3 of its speech programmes: he didn't answer!.

I'm happy to leave the debate about R3's musical content and strategy to others, but in my view it is only the inclusion and retention of a significant proportion of speech that keeps R3 distinctive.

Quite agree. If Radio 3 dropped it I'm sure Radio 4 wouldn't pick it up. It's often too specialised (a trilogy of symbolist plays! ) or too variable in length for R4's less flexible schedules. But with the state the BBC's in atm I can't see it bothering them if the non-populist stuff were ditched.

[Anna]

I feel rather differently about World Routes because I feel that, potentially, it could have been (and sometimes was) the more appropriate world music programme, delving into global traditional musics

And, you could have a month of Sundays programmes about Gamelan and how it has influenced Western classical composers. And did not R3 have Proms of classical Raga? And how about classical Chinese? Unfortunately World Routes went down the drum'n'bass route.

[Flay]

Yes, I want to hear music. But I also want to learn about it. I want programmes that discuss it, how it is composed, how it works (or doesn't). I want them to assume a basic knowledge (not having to explain every time about key, sharps and flats, what the instruments are, sonata form etc.) I am happy to be lectured at, to learn. Then the music can mean so much more.

DM used to do this but it has been grossly downgraded. Would it really be so expensive to commission some musicologists to make these programmes? I feel sure that universities would welcome the extra income. They don't have to travel the globe to do this. They do not need to involve "celebrities."

The real celebrities are those who have developed their abilities, skills and learning to a very high standard.

[EdgeleyRob]

I just want the old Radio 3 back.

[Dave2002]

It's very difficult for me to figure out what Radio 3 thinks it's trying to do, apart either from chasing the tail of Classic fm, to gain extra listeners, or so it thinks, or making such a pigs ear of the wavelength that those in charge will just give up on Radio 3 altogether and redeploy or pension off RW and his merry men and women. The Proms would then be privatised, or taken on by Kensington & Chelsea council, government subsidised to keep tickets cheap.

A few days ago I turned on R3 in the afternoon. Felt very CFM ish, and I gave up when the Lark Ascending came on. Pity - I quite like the piece - providing I only hear it once every 2 years.

Not sure about Kensington & Chelsea council - what's needed is a Russian or Chinese oligarch with an interest in classical music.

[Quarky]

The BBC is great with its market research on contemporary lifestyles, listening habits and the various audience profile analyses. I wondered what they had 'discovered' that might explain certain apparent changes to the nature of Radio 3.
Have they found that 'speech and music don't mix'?
Is this really about financial cuts or is the aim to change Radio 3 from a wide ranging arts station into a 'minority interest' music station? And does this respond to what the semi-cultured, less literate wallpaper music listeners want?

An interesting thread, and agree we are in a long-term period of CFMisation, as with global warming. And during this process, speech-based programmes will suffer more, because they require more mind exertion on the part of the listener.

But "Speech and Music don't mix?" An oversimplified conclusion I feel. My view is that individual programmes have to be assessed on the basis of their musical merit, the amount of interest in the discussion, and the manner of presentation.

For the examples given, I quite like early music, but the show that is being axed amounted to long periods of rather stuffy recital of personal histories of ancient musicians. So I won't miss it. But then again, one might say the same about Composer of the Week, a flagship programme! It depends I feel on the particular presenter, and the presenter knowing what they can get away with in stuffing historical artefacts down our ears.

Discovering music is another programme I won't miss. It had some use some years ago when in a "learning mode" but nowadays I know enough ( in truth, very little). These days, I'm put off by the presenter's very ardent presentation, and an attitude that the smallest musical excerpt has a great emotional content attached to it. Then again Saturday's CD Review? Flagship programme, but open to a similar contrary view?

Jazz programmes. Alyn Shipton IMHO is a very good presenter, and maintains interest while chewing the fat - chat sessions and interiews. I feel Jazz Library was axed, because overall it probably appealed more to the hardened Jazzbo, rather than to the listener with a passing Jazz interest. As regards Jazz Line Up, which effectively takes the place of Jazz Library, this is a magazine type programme, with good presenters in general (but the occasional flop).

The Dama programme is in a different category, because it is non-music. Never understood why it was on Radio 3. It certainly used to darken those long motorway jouneys back home from weekends in the National Parks.

Speech is really an integral part of Radio 3 music programmes -e.g. In Tune. But presenters have to be careful about over-egging and hamming it up - there are a few I can think of!

[salymap]

As Edgeley Rob says on #9, we just want our old trusted station back.

Things change but if they change this much terrible damage is done

[french frank]

The D[r]ama programme is in a different category, because it is non-music. Never understood why it was on Radio 3.

People seem to forget that when the Third Programme was launched, classical music (or "good music" as it was termed :-) ) constituted approximately one third of the output. Another third was (spoken) arts - including drama: as aeolium pointed out, Sartre's Huis Clos was an early production. The remainder was topical/general discussion (Such as Russell v. Coplestone on The Existence of God and Jan Smuts on world affairs).

When the plans were announced for the Third to become Radio 3 the great fear (Max Davies among those most concerned) was that it would become a sort of wallpaper of 'good music' and all the speech programmes would be lost. They were assured that only 'politics and current affairs' would move over to the new Radio 4.

To drop the speech-based programming, including the arts, to play swathes of classical music (with a nod towards jazz and world music for as long as they could get away with it) would strip Radio 3 entirely of its educational role. And since even the classical music programming is going steadily downmarket there wouldn't even be any guarantee that that would be worth listening to other than on the long car journeys and while people are 'doing other things'. But my suspicion is that that's exactly what they plan.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i would like radio to do what it did, lead me on to what i did not know i wanted .... only Jon3 is really doing this [and yes i am among its fiercest critics in the past] ... Cow CD Review somewhat, and TEMS especially in terms of music

but i think that BBC Radio criminally under serves the intellect in all branches of knowledge and culture ... where is the beacon of difficulty, difference and discrimination that can set aflame the teenage mind? ... very necessary is it not if we reflect back to our own adolescences ... it actively bothered my 16 year old head that i could not understand what was being said, even though i loved what was being discussed .... so one explores and learns ....

i do not want the slurps that commercial media ensnare passive audiences with to ram the ads across; i do not want the slippers tea and Anglicanism of the disappeared English ... [oh how boring England was]

if i want the comfort of familiar things i can play iTunes or cds or dvds ... if media is to be sponsored by license paying or other taxation, it must be both innovative and it must sustain the canons of knowledge and practise that commercial media will ignore in their marketing hysteric amnesia, spooning passivity and pulp to the lazy audience...

[Flay]

People seem to forget that when the Third Programme was launched, classical music (or "good music" as it was termed :-) ) constituted approximately one third of the output. Another third was (spoken) arts - including drama....

To drop the speech-based programming, including the arts, to play swathes of classical music (with a nod towards jazz and world music for as long as they could get away with it) would strip Radio 3 entirely of its educational role....

Very well argued, ff. I do indeed want more spoken word, more drama, poetry, and sensible discussion.

I often record programmes for later digestion. While walking the dogs just now I listened to the DM on Shosty 4, which is currently a topic of board discussion; a work I do not yet know. Unfortunately it was a mere 20 minute episode, barely enough to scratch the surface of such a mighty work.