The concept of moral injury

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...actually, as opposed to armchairs, the notion of such a moral injury has wider application .... for example, physical and sexual abuse of children does injure their feelings of worth shame guilt and so on .... and can make it very difficult for them to build the life they might wish ... the notion of a continuum of harm might also be considered as well as the correct terminology, an injury is an injury, and injustice is an argument seems to me ...

i also think on a more mundane level that being managed by a tyrant or idiot, or bullied can cause moral injury; defeating the persons trust in others and independence [autonomy] ....

Robert Jay Lifton wrote well on these matters in the less mundane context ..

[eighthobstruction]

Ooooooo I can taste the tentative nature of this discussion....

....Yes, Durkheim !!....thank goodness I don't have to read that any more....

....Yes moral injury....there's been a bit about recently....

Ed....I see the OP now has a link....

[amateur51]

What strikes me as slightly odd as far as defending the case goes is that he was already a keen and willing soldier: he looked forward to going to Afghanistan. Did he feel a moral guilt about doing what a soldier might be expected to have to do or about what actually happened?

It also says:

"When he came home on 18 January 2012, a civilian once again, he was inconsolable. He told his mother: "I'm nothing now. I've been thrown away by the army."

A feeling might (I think Pabs was saying this) pre-exist that as a young, fit man he ought to join the army and do his patriotic duty (the US always being the 'good guys'). And then finding that, not necessarily intentionally, war involved doing things he hadn't conceived of doing - but could this be described as 'moral injury' in being inflicted by any individual or body?

Not entirely on-topic, I'm reminded of the parents of British soldiers killed in the Falklands, saying that their sons had thought of the Army as being a secure place for an 18-year-old where they could serve their terms, learn a trade and then leave. They hadn't thought of having to go to war...

I think the Falkllands example is very pertinent. For many, let's face it, working-class young men whom education (and life?) has failed, joining the apparent safety of the military life makes a lot of sense ... until you get into battle.

And what about the experiences of middle- and upper-class young men who join for a career as an officer?

And what about the experiences of women personnel?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

actually, as opposed to armchairs, dumbing down R3 is a form of moral injury for us eh? .... more mundane might be tricky though ....

[Beef Oven!]

....Yes, Durkheim !!....thank goodness I don't have to read that any more

So you haven't checked your coefficient of preservation with your GP lately?

Mine's higher than my cholesterol.

[Pabmusic]

But does it imply an acceptable level of such suicides or perhaps greater screening of personnel prior to selection or during and after warfare?

The number of suicides (self-harmers too, I imagine) is appalling and does suggest that something is going wrong. Surely no suicides are acceptable, except that I imagine some are inevitable:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Kipling understood.

[amateur51]

The number of suicides (self-harmers too, I imagine) is appalling and does suggest that something is going wrong. Surely no suicides are acceptable, except that I imagine some are inevitable:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Kipling understood.

Sadly true, Pabs.

But do we still require the sacrifice and self-sacrifice?

I wonder if drone-directors suffer as much.

[eighthobstruction]

A feeling might (I think Pabs was saying this) pre-exist that as a young, fit man he ought to join the army and do his patriotic duty (the US always being the 'good guys'). And then finding that, not necessarily intentionally, war involved doing things he hadn't conceived of doing - but could this be described as 'moral injury' in being inflicted by any individual or body?

Not entirely on-topic, I'm reminded of the parents of British soldiers killed in the Falklands, saying that their sons had thought of the Army as being a secure place for an 18-year-old where they could serve their term, learn a trade and then leave. They hadn't thought of having to go to war...

Yes, I think both these paragraphs meld well....I am always struck by the parents of dead and maimed young 18-20 yr old solders (and sometimes the soldiers themselves in media documentaries about amputees) saying "This what he wanted to do, he died doing what he wanted to do", and wonder how limited a list of careers they wanted to do was available or broached....also there is the ethos of 'Forces' families.

[Pabmusic]

Am I remembering things right? I'm sure Ive read recently that the number of US military suicides is disproportionately high among personnel who hadn't seen combat, or even been near it. I can't find the reference, though. It might support the 'moral injury' notion.

[eighthobstruction]

The phrase moral deprivation also occurs as there has been a high number of civilian murders involving ex military when they too are back home....

[amateur51]

If established as a reality, of course, moral injury might imply the possibility of compensation.

It's the possibility of its existence and the practical ignoring of it apparently that really concerns me. Such a waste.

[amateur51]

The phrase moral deprivation also occurs as there has been a high number of civilian murders involving ex military when they too are back home....

Turning the pain outwards (against the cause, human society) instead of the suicide's inwards, perhaps?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

suicide is not an entirely inward gesture imo Ams ..... the military have always been notoriously slow to come to terms with just how psychically damaging soldiering is and how much needs to be, and could be, done to offset the harm done by fighting

[amateur51]

suicide is not an entirely inward gesture imo Ams ..... the military have always been notoriously slow to come to terms with just how psychically damaging soldiering is and how much needs to be, and could be, done to offset the harm done by fighting

I realise on re-reading that that's what I implied Calum - I think that in suicide the pain can be directed outwards or inwards.

Doesn't the military have a vested interest in at one level in not acknowledging the psychic damage of soldiering - "Join the Modern Army .. And Do You Head In!" is not a winning slogan - particularly in a military that regards personnel as expendable.

However, 'managerially' speaking it's terribly wasteful to train people to a pitch of effectiveness and then to abandon them when they break down rather than care for & nurture them as an asset once they break down - aside from the humanistic side of things, in my opinion.

[eighthobstruction]

Substance abuse (while self inflicted)is a terrible consequence to individual and family can be seen as a moral injury to a certain extent....