Europe and the Tories Wagging the Dog

[kernelbogey]

I had the privilege of meeting Tony Benn about four years ago, and hearing from him his guiding principle that the purpose of politics is to win your argument, which cannot be achieved by personal attacks.

So I'm not going to respond to your posts 43 & 44, Simon - neither to their content, nor to their tone.

[kernelbogey]

I am sure that Mr Sweeney from York is better informed than me. But a lot of his "benefits " are simply unsubstantiated assertions. Its not hard to find them.some are downright daft.

EG:quote:"investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital."

Well that kind of depends where you view the thing from.A nice chair in a uni department, or the dole queue in the south of spain.

Does he mention the ECB's role in the economic chaos?I couldn't find it.

Well I think you've picked one vague sentence from a long list consisting mostly of absolutely specific benefits.

While one might consider that 'a nice chair in a university department' and a Spanish dole queue might neither of them be entirely free of prejudice I'd put my money on the former rather than the latter. (And BTW he's a lecturer, not a professor, so he doesn't hold a Chair though admittedly you didn't capitalise it .)

And no, he didn't mention economic chaos, as you would expect in a letter which attempts to refute some of the 'better out' arguments. I don't think we can separate the economic chaos from the way that banks have been managed.

I'd say the best chance the UK has of - to take one example - legislating against the tax-evading use of tax havens by multi-national companies is to work with a powerful block of nations.

I will declare my bias. I have been travelling frequently to Italy and other continental European countries since the age of two and consider myself a European. I detest nationalism. I think £7bn would probably be worth it just for, as the letter states, sixty years of peace after one of the bloodiest centuries in history.

[Simon]

I had the privilege of meeting Tony Benn about four years ago, and hearing from him his guiding principle that the purpose of politics is to win your argument, which cannot be achieved by personal attacks.

So I'm not going to respond to your posts 43 & 44, Simon - neither to their content, nor to their tone.

I can't see what's wrong with them, kb. But difficult to see how you could counter my main point anyway. (Sorry if my response to Bryn offended you - but it's far gentler than many of his at me!)

Incidentally, I've just come across this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21002988

Another "benefit" from being in the EU, eh? Lots of Eastern Europeans. I gather some were in Bakewell last summer. Pickpocketing.

And we can't do a thing to stop them coming over, apparently. "Cos of the EU rules, you know". Those ones that have been so beneficial to us...

[Bax-of-Delights]

What do YOU mean by cultures ?

(this is a serious question)

A culture that is born and nutured and developed through the slow progress of centuries of social and familial development indigenous to the demands of the land and food production required to keep people comfortably in situ. One may also add the artistic inheritance - song, music, dance, art, writing - that flows from and adds to the multi-layered essence of being a Greek, Spaniard, Portugese, whatever.
Some will argue that what we are seeing now is the attempt to amalgamate these "failing" states (and we could have a much longer discussion about why and how they are failing) into a federal Europe where policy is dictated from the centre by politicians that have more interest in their salaries and pensions and care little for the people at the edges who are being hung out to dry.

[teamsaint]

Well I think you've picked one vague sentence from a long list consisting mostly of absolutely specific benefits.

While one might consider that 'a nice chair in a university department' and a Spanish dole queue might neither of them be entirely free of prejudice I'd put my money on the former rather than the latter. (And BTW he's a lecturer, not a professor, so he doesn't hold a Chair though admittedly you didn't capitalise it .)

And no, he didn't mention economic chaos, as you would expect in a letter which attempts to refute some of the 'better out' arguments. I don't think we can separate the economic chaos from the way that banks have been managed.

I'd say the best chance the UK has of - to take one example - legislating against the tax-evading use of tax havens by multi-national companies is to work with a powerful block of nations.

I will declare my bias. I have been travelling frequently to Italy and other continental European countries since the age of two and consider myself a European. I detest nationalism. I think £7bn would probably be worth it just for, as the letter states, sixty years of peace after one of the bloodiest centuries in history.

KB, I picked just one, as an important example. Many of those benefits may have been as a result of EU membership, some might have happened anyway, some might have been done better by national governments. My point was really just that the letter looks superficially like an impressive list of benefits, but isn't quite so impressive on closer inspection.
( I did notice that he isn't a prof, BTW , hence, as you say....)

Nationalism is indeed very dangerous territory. But big government brings another big set of problems.
As regards the banks...it has been demonstrated all too clearly in the last few years how they are at the centre of, and control modern economic life....check out Dave's comments on them, for instance. !
As for the peace question. Well nobody could argue that peace inside Europe has been a massive move forward. But things come at a price. This country has been fighting wars abroad for much of the last 30 years. IMHO, we have exported our european wars , and to the benefit of the arms industry. Bahrain anybody? If the governments of europe are so keen on peace, perhaps the (legitimate) arms industry would be somewhere to start reform.

[Bryn]

I can't see what's wrong with them, kb. But difficult to see how you could counter my main point anyway. (Sorry if my response to Bryn offended you - but it's far gentler than many of his at me!)

Incidentally, I've just come across this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21002988

Another "benefit" from being in the EU, eh? Lots of Eastern Europeans. I gather some were in Bakewell last summer. Pickpocketing.

And we can't do a thing to stop them coming over, apparently. "Cos of the EU rules, you know". Those ones that have been so beneficial to us...

Yes, in the good old days it was Australian pick-pocket gangs from the Commonwealth, IIRC. In more recent times it's Eastern European pick-pocket gangs in Australia, that well known member of the EU.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/foreign-gangs-entering-australia-to-rob-victorians/story-e6frf7jo-1225764121648

Nothing new about such gangs from Eastern Europe operating in the U.K. either. I remember them well before the eastwards expansion of the EU.

Another kippered 'red herring' from Simon.

[I see that someone tried petitioning the Government re. banning convicted EU criminals from returning to the UK once excluded. It was a very popular petition, gaining all of 12 signatures:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/18547 ]

[MrGongGong]

A culture that is born and nutured and developed through the slow progress of centuries of social and familial development indigenous to the demands of the land and food production required to keep people comfortably in situ. One may also add the artistic inheritance - song, music, dance, art, writing - that flows from and adds to the multi-layered essence of being a Greek, Spaniard, Portugese, whatever.

Indeed , I thought that also

Which is exactly what the EU facilitates , without the EU NO Cantal cheese, NO Arbroath Smokies etc etc
the irony (? ) is that the supposed "centralisation" of the EU is often the very thing that will prevent cultural homogenisation

[MrGongGong]

Another "benefit" from being in the EU, eh? Lots of Eastern Europeans. I gather some were in Bakewell last summer. Pickpocketing.

And we can't do a thing to stop them coming over, apparently. "Cos of the EU rules, you know". Those ones that have been so beneficial to us...

I think the main problem (and am sure that after a couple of pints most of the kippers would be saying the same thing !) is that these NEW foreigners are difficult to spot because they have the unfortunate feature of having the same colour skin as most of the residents of Bakewell. IN the "good old days" you could easily spot a "badun" as they were always BLACK

You really couldn't make it up ..............

[Beef Oven]

I had the privilege of meeting Tony Benn about four years ago, and hearing from him his guiding principle that the purpose of politics is to win your argument, which cannot be achieved by personal attacks.

So I'm not going to respond to your posts 43 & 44, Simon - neither to their content, nor to their tone.

Had a lot of time for Benn once, then he disappeared and reappeared sans the Anthony Wedgwood bit as plane old Tony. Then what he does next is buy a second hand rusty mark one Ford Escort estate (bronze coloured if my memory's correct). As somebody who had no option but the drive 'round in a Ford Escort crap-heap, I felt his tokenism was extremely insulting to genuinely working class people. Since then I have never really respected as much as I did. Still read his books and re-read some of them.

[kernelbogey]

Nationalism is indeed very dangerous territory.

Agreed: and one form of it is objections to 'Brussels' dictating to us what strength of beer we drink, banning straight bananas, legislating on the width of the stitching on cricket balls, ruining our traditional countryside, and other selective, biased or fictititious, tabloid-headline stuff (I made some of those up, BTW ). Such arguing always ignores the fact that we participate in - negotiate - the nature of such legislation. See, for example, the compromise on fishing quotas.

As regards the banks...it has been demonstrated all too clearly in the last few years how they are at the centre of, and control modern economic life....

Not least by continuing to lend to the southern states which were not good credit risks, perhaps banking on the assumption that they'd be bailed out by other EU countries if the debt went bad.

As for the peace question. Well nobody could argue that peace inside Europe has been a massive move forward. But things come at a price. This country has been fighting wars abroad for much of the last 30 years.

The wars abroad we have participated in have mostly been led by the US, with somewhat coerced European 'coalition partners'. IIRC France stood out against the invasion of Iraq. I'm unaware of any EU decision to go to war en bloque.

IMHO, we have exported our european wars , and to the benefit of the arms industry. Bahrain anybody? If the governments of europe are so keen on peace, perhaps the (legitimate) arms industry would be somewhere to start reform.

Agreed about the arms industry and our two-faced stance on arms exports. I don't understand what you mean by 'we have exported our european wars' (but perhaps you mean we've simply exported nationalist aggression abroad).

If, as a result of a referendum, our coalition government began to negotiate withdrawal from the EU it would be a catastrophe for this country. Neither of the coalition partners stated this as an objective in their manifestos, so they don't have a mandate to do so. Much of what happening at present in our home politics around this is Cameron trying to appease his Eurosceptic right-wing on the back benches, because without them the coalition would be toast at the next General Election.

[MrGongGong]

At least Tony Benn has the integrity to be opposed to the EU on the grounds of lack of democracy AND is in favour of getting rid of the Royal Family, Bishops in the House of Lords and Hereditary peerages ............ really wealthy people don't give a toss about what cars they drive unless they are particularly interested in cars !

[french frank]

Another "benefit" from being in the EU, eh? Lots of Eastern Europeans. I gather some were in Bakewell last summer. Pickpocketing.

And we can't do a thing to stop them coming over, apparently. "Cos of the EU rules, you know". Those ones that have been so beneficial to us...

Yes, we know all about the pickpockets abroad in Derbyshire


A number of Eastern Europeans were in the hospital, looking after me too over Christmas and New Year. And working with the support teams on my home recovery. Doing all sorts of nasty jobs people in this country aren't keen to do.

[MrGongGong]

A number of Eastern Europeans were in the hospital, looking after me too over Christmas and New Year. And working with the support teams on my home recovery. Doing all sorts of nasty jobs people in this country aren't keen to do.

I also had a similar experience last year

and don't see many others willing to pick sprouts in the rain !

[kernelbogey]

And of course all of us - even Simon - have the reciprocal right to go work in Poland or Rumania.

[aeolium]

Much of what happening at present in our home politics around this is Cameron trying to appease his Eurosceptic right-wing on the back benches, because without them the coalition would be toast at the next General Election.

It's not just that, though. It's quite clear that UKIP are taking significant numbers of votes from the Tories (more than from any other party) and this poses a real problem for Cameron. If he does nothing about Europe then his chances of even being part of a coalition come 2015 are increasingly small, because the UKIP vote will cost him 20-30 seats lost to Labour. Remember that there are European elections in 2014 which could see UKIP finish as the leading party by votes (they were second last time).

But what is your explanation for the rise of nationalist movements throughout Europe (of which UKIP is only one manifestation)? What do you think should happen about the eurozone and how the EU should change, if at all? Why is the EU so unpopular, not just in Britain but in other parts of Europe, especially in the Mediterranean countries, and what can it do about it?