Europe and the Tories Wagging the Dog

[Beef Oven]

I have little economic expertise and do not expect my views to count for much in this debate but I am inclined to take seriously the views of those business leaders who recently warned that EU exit would create damaging uncertainty. I feel instinctively that the UK is better off as part of Europe and being active and positive in Brussels policy-making rather than just jeering from the sidelines. The retrograde attitudes, boorish behaviour and crude populist propagandising of UKIP only serve to confirm my pro-European standpoint. Despite many decades of Americanisation of our culture and more recent EU influence, I am convinced that we in the UK are strong and confident enough in ourselves not to have to worry constantly about losing our independence and identity, as seems to be the neurotic obsession of UKIP and others. I frequently travel to France and Germany and do not notice this pre-occupation over there - which suggests that it is not a necessary consequence of EU membership.

Maybe you should not be so easily taken in by the views of so-called 'business leaders'.

Ford warn against leaving the EU, don't they? Well they would, wouldn't they?

The EU is funding Ford's switch of the production of the Ford Transit (the 'Backbone of Britain' as their ads go) from historic Southampton to Turkey!

Yes, Turkey!!!!

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/briefing/fordfactory/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

[teamsaint]

Brilliant.
Thanks for the link Beefy.
Dagenham next?

[Barbirollians]

Norway really ought to be a salutary example for the EU haters. Whilst outside the EU and being associated they have to comply with EU law as part of the deal - so they are bound by laws they have no influence over !

[Beef Oven]

Norway really ought to be a salutary example for the EU haters. Whilst outside the EU and being associated they have to comply with EU law as part of the deal - so they are bound by laws they have no influence over !

Norway's position seems as silly as our current position then!

We don't have to copy Norway, so it's irrelevant.

Anyway, the EU's decision to fund Ford's relocation of it's 'Backbone Of Britain' Ford Transit operation from Southampton to Turkey with money that the British tax payer has contributed to is perverse in the extreme.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/briefing/fordfactory/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

[MrGongGong]

We don't have to copy Norway, so it's irrelevant.

But you kippers are always going on about how great it would be to be Norway or Switzerland ?
strange indeed
and surely the drone music list should keep you busy rather than wasting time with fantasy politics ?

[Beef Oven]

But you kippers are always going on about how great it would be to be Norway or Switzerland ?
strange indeed
and surely the drone music list should keep you busy rather than wasting time with fantasy politics ?

Yes, MrGG we love Norway (I go there often), but it's not instructive to compare a little country with a $480B GDP like Norway with the 7th largest economy in the world whose economy is 2.2 trillion dollars!

[handsomefortune]

or 'arabia' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR7JJF8op4

[MrGongGong]

Yes, MrGG we love Norway (I go there often), but it's not instructive to compare a little country with a $480B GDP like Norway with the 7th largest economy in the world whose economy is 2.2 trillion dollars!

is that "we" as in "we are a grandmother" ?
or in this sense ?

[Beef Oven]

or 'arabia' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR7JJF8op4

Hey Handsomefortune, what do you think about Ford being subsidised by the EU to re-locate their transit production from Southampton to Turkey?

[Beef Oven]

is that "we" as in "we are a grandmother" ?
or in this sense ?

It was you that said 'we'. I am merely indulging you!

[Serial_Apologist]

or 'arabia' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR7JJF8op4

That clip wouldn't pass the family controls exercised by my computer...

[handsomefortune]

Hey Handsomefortune, what do you think about Ford being subsidised by the EU to re-locate their transit production from Southampton to Turkey?

i think it's extremely unfortunate that ford have chosen to out source to turkey.

whether the eu subsidises the move, or not, makes little difference to those who will lose their jobs as a result of ford outsourcing. it comes as no surprise that the eu and a large corp work together in this way, despite the drawbacks to southampton and to ford employees themselves, as well as to uk manufacturing generally. (though no one seems to give a darn about that, and haven't done since the 1980s when sir james goldsmith stripped it to the bone (quite overtly) and made thatcher tetchy.

therefore, i'm not sure that we can simply blame europe or the eu.... cart before the horse, upside down logic. what was needed was an incentive for ford to stay based in southampton - but they're off instead. same as gerrard depadoo or whatever his name is who's off to russia so he can save money.............

road kill sandwich anyone?

[Beef Oven]

i think it's extremely unfortunate that ford have chosen to out source to turkey.

whether the eu subsidises the move, or not, makes little difference to those who will lose their jobs as a result of ford outsourcing. it comes as no surprise that the eu and a large corp work together in this way, despite the drawbacks to southampton and to ford employees themselves, as well as to uk manufacturing generally. (though no one seems to give a darn about that, and haven't done since the 1980s when sir james goldsmith stripped it to the bone (quite overtly) and made thatcher tetchy.

therefore, i'm not sure that we can simply blame europe or the eu.... cart before the horse, upside down logic. what was needed was an incentive for ford to stay based in southampton - but they're off instead. same as gerrard depadoo or whatever his name is who's off to russia so he can save money.............

road kill sandwich anyone?

Dear Handsomefortune,

There is no upside-down logic or the putting of carts before horses about my take on this.

The European Investment Bank is an EU bank that has as its shareholders the 27 member states of the EU i.e. the tax-payers.

The money is being used as a low-cost loan to Ford and Its Turkish joint venture partner Otosan (Koc Holding) to develop the Turkish factory in the Istanbul industrial hinterland and to fund the transfer of production from Southampton to the Republic of Turkey.

This is utterly perfidious.

The EU purports claims to develop member state economic development and well-being. Reality is obviously very different.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/briefing/fordfactory/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Douglas Alexander, the shadow foreign secretary, drew the sharpest conclusion in his Chatham House speech on Europe. Whereas Lincoln, in passing a 13th amendment to abolish slavery, “was willing to contemplate low politics to try and achieve historic change”, Mr Cameron, in offering his referendum, was “willing to contemplate historic change to try and achieve low politics”.

from the Tgraf today ... just to share a nice turn of phrase eh

[Roehre]

....
The trouble is that the UK perception of the EU is largely influenced by anti-EU propanga in the right leaning press and the swivel eyed Tory little-Englander rednecks. There is little or no general reporting of the EU. I suspect a large part of the antipathy towards the EU is due to a combination of delusions of grandure (forgetting that Brittain no longer rules the waves) and a profound lack of confidence (those beastly continentals are out to get us).

I am afraid there is more than a little truth in this.

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Italy e.g. allow local authorities (Land/Gemeinde, Département/Region, Provincie, Regione) to negotiate directly with EU commisars and standing committees and thus getting most out of their countries membership and defend their interests (by allowing their own representations or even lobbyists located in Brussels/Strassbourg)- does Scotland or Wales, let alone any of the shires/counties got its own representants over there in Brussels?

The British negotiate often from an "All-or nothing at all" view. They seem to be incapable of compromising, or playing the game. And within the EU the adage "beat them or join them" is highly valued.

The vast majority of the other EU-countries, their negotiators, their MEPs (!) consider the British way of negotiating and policy making as ineffective, inefficient and unreliable. The British influence within the European Parliament is effectively hardly better than that of Malta or Cyprus. The latter countries' MEPs produced/introduced approximately just as many Member bills effectively as the British. The British succeed in only approximately 10% compared with what the German, French, Polish (!), Italian, Dutch or Spanish MEPs ultimately get realized.
So far from what has got to be changed. European Union governance is far from ideal. But before crying wolf- let's begin first with making the British approach more effective.

On top of that: we've got a House of Commons that doesn't object to gold plating European law by implementing it (more than) fully as it comes from Brussels, leaving out possible exemptions.
One example: the lead directive which -according to the British- means that organ builders are not longer allowed to use lead in building these instruments.
However, an Annexe to the directive from Brussels offers the opportunity -to be decided by the parlements of the member state countries themselves- to create exemptions, e.g for organisations and trades for which lead is a necessary evil as there are no alternatives (like organ builders).
Not only did Whitehall mandarins overlook this annexe before presenting the bill to Parliament, the originally 4 page EU-directive had grown to a 12 page document, 56 paragraphs.
Nevertheless: It was rubberstamped by the Commons without discussion.
(The French law is only 2 pages, 7 paragraphs, the German one 3 pages 9 paragraphs)

This is one example of a EU directive being gold plated and rubber stamped by the Commons.
For much of Health and Safety regulations which is said to be "Brussels' " fault, only Westminster is to blame e.g.

As this country is ruled by the anti-EU-press, and with a less than -in this respect- effective governement (both Labour and Tory are suffering from the Mandarinite power to propose what they like), "Brussels" is blamed for nearly everything that goes (or is) wrong in Britain.
A verb about splinters and eyes comes to mind, i'm afraid.