Europe and the Tories Wagging the Dog

[MrGongGong]

Lets hope the daft kippers carry on coming unstuck before anyone starts to take them seriously

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20961650

so much for "freedom" then ...............

[eighthobstruction]

Well they are being successful changing work and pension and National OAP and Education at a stroke, so I guess they believe they can do it to EU too....

[Serial_Apologist]

Yep, that too for sure....

It's the first step in a certain unreconstructed type of reasoning, eighth. The problem then is in the how. And we may have to go quite a bit further down the slippery slope before that kind of reckoning. The scapegoating will be on a "you ain't seen nothing yet" scale, though I think heads are more firmly screwed onto shoulders to see now what's happening: it's not as easy as it was in the 70s to appeal to "our boys in blue", "unfortunately" forced to "keep the peace" between opposing sides, one of them defined as "the enemy within" at worst, but at best certainly coerced. The gaff has been blown on that one along with many others. I have a lot of faith in the ability of informed people to adapt to circumstances not of their making, even farmers, so long as the goals really are common ones.

[MrGongGong]

Not my usual rag
but this seems to make sense to me

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/4252945/Did-we-vote-for-EU-in-1975-referendum.html

[Bax-of-Delights]

I hesitate to step into this maelstrom but hey, it's Sunday morning and I need a break from filing bank statements and all the other detritus that builds up on the various surfaces of the lounge. Mrs B-o-D has issued an ultimatum but I have a 10 minute window of opportunity...

One really needs to take a long look at Greece and Spain (and to some extent Italy and Portugal) before extolling the virtues of the EU. These are cultures that are being systematically destroyed by the rigours of EU membership and in turn one might argue that the heavy anchors of the Mediterranean states are gradually pulling the rest of the EU below the waves. The size of unemployment in these countries is fast becoming dangerously top-heavy with state income tax take failing to support the outgoing unemployment benefit with the consequence that taxes are rising and government spending being cut drastically (imposed on Greece by a non-elected EU cadre). I don't see multi-nationals rushing into these countries to soak up the available workforce on low wages. Au contraire, there is a flight of money and investment from these countries - even though they are part of what we have always been fed as the EU "power-house". My understanding is that the UK's export to the EU is falling - understandably considering the economic state of a fair number of the countries within the EU - and is beginning to grow with the rest of the world.

[aeolium]

Just to show that a sceptical view of the EU is not confined to UKIP and the Tory right, here is a recent article by someone on the left, which may be of interest to Calum and S_A at least.

I think the UK debate along the lines of "let's call the whole thing off"/"let's not be left behind on the platform as the European train leaves" is a pretty sterile one and doesn't really begin to look closely at what is happening in Europe, what are the options for the way the EU develops, and what people are thinking about this outside the UK. The European project, at least from the 1970s onwards, has been about a steady movement towards greater economic, monetary and political union, and the various treaties, particularly Maastricht and Lisbon, confirm this. Yet now it does seem to be in an existential crisis brought about by the Great Crash of 2008 and the subsequent eurozone crisis (which has not, pace M Barroso, remotely been resolved). The eurozone appears to be locked in a sort of permanent recession, with record unemployment of 12% - rising to around 25% for Greece and Spain, and over 50% youth unemployment in the worst affected countries. The recession in the peripheral eurozone countries is affecting the richer ones, and in turn that affects the EU countries outside the eurozone - it now looks as if the UK will see a triple-dip recession early this year. The policies deployed to tackle the crisis, like the policies before it, have been severely monetarist i.e. concerned about inflation more than growth and unemployment. The result has been that the fundamental flaw at the heart of monetary union - how the competitive imbalances between the different countries in the eurozone were to be resolved without any fiscal union or legitimate means of rich countries bailing out poor ones - remains present, and in fact has got much worse since the imbalances have been greatly exaggerated as a result of the crisis.

What are the options for the EU from here? I'd say there were three, or perhaps four. 1) To move quickly to a form of fiscal union within the eurozone, which would require a central authority to effectively guarantee the euro and would allow fiscal transfers between the different regions of the eurozone in return for budgetary control over member countries' tax and spend 2) To do 1) but with a reduced inner core of members, possibly losing some of the peripheral countries from the zone who would become, like the non-eurozone countries, members of a looser confederation 3) to put a halt to the aspiration towards monetary and political union and progressively dissolve the eurozone and 4) to muddle along with compromise cliffhanger settlements, as has been happening in the last 3 years or so, to stave off crisis and postpone resolution to another day. Option 3 seems particularly unlikely, not least as it would involve a serious loss of face by political leaders who have a lot of their credibility staked to an ever more integrated Europe. Option 1 seems particularly difficult politically as there would be intense political opposition within richer countries to the prospect of endless bailouts and opposition among the populations of the bailee countries at the prospect of total loss of sovereignty to the centre, and having long-term programmes of austerity imposed. So my bet would be on option 4) leading eventually to option 2).

As to the question of referendums, whether or not there is a referendum here or elsewhere in Europe, popular opinion about the decisions European leaders make about the eurozone and the EU will strongly influence the way these institutions develop. It is no longer possible - as it was for some time in the EU - for the project to be managed like the expansion of some multinational corporation, in a technocratic way, with decisions taken by political leaders getting together. The rise across Europe over the last ten years or so of nationalist parties of both right and left mean that there are now significant political blocs arguing for nationalist, not European policies; we saw that with the last Greek election where one of the centrist parties was decimated and the other one only just obtained a majority over its nationalist rival, we see it here in the UK with the rise of UKIP in the polls, but it is a phenomenon taking place in most of Europe. And this is why I ultimately feel political union is unachievable in Europe - in a voluntary association of democracies, at times of crisis, nationalism will always trump Europeanism and drive states to seek their own interests over and above those of Europe as a whole.

[Simon]

I have neither the time nor wish to go over all the arguments again. There is so much irrelevancy talked.

The main point, for those in UKIP and such as me, is this:

There's no problem with the EU as a group of trading nations - a bloc, if you like - with the necessary, efficient bureacracy to make such things work.

There is a massive problem, however, with an ever-expanding, cross-cultural, one-size-fits-all, undemocratic, unaccountable political entity, which benefits almost exclusively a particular supra-class of political has-beens and their bureaucratic stoges and fellow-travellers (along with French farmers), and is destroying, by mis-management and interference (even though some is well-meant), ways of life which have gone on for centuries.

That the single currency has nearly destroyed Greece and is causing major problems elsewhere is what those like me foretold. The current "answer" to it, will fail, and that's a tragedy, and it's because less than perhaps a hundred people haven't the guts to say "we got it wrong", but instead say "we will never allow it to fail " - irrespective of the cost in jobs and lives to those whom we are supposed to serve (but they never state the last bit!)

That the UK's political class may just be waking up (apart from failed dinosaurs like Heseltine) is great. But whether any of them actually have the guts to get us out is another matter - don't forget many of them are looking for well-paid sinecures after they finish here.

Making the withdrawal case is easy, as there is absolutely no benefit to the UK at all from EU membership. All it is is a big hole into which we pour billions each year, that would be better spent here.

The arguments about trade are ridiculous and the idea that if we left we wouldn't be able to deal with, say, Germany, is ludicrous.

But the biggest sadness for me is how we're all so powerless against a few thousand people who can do what they want. The EU - in practice - is the least democratic, least accountable political organisation in Europe.

(Edit: meant to say, thanks to Bax and aeolium for a couple of good, thought-provoking posts.)

[kernelbogey]

What's the EU ever done for us?'

there is absolutely no benefit to the UK at all from EU membership. All it is is a big hole into which we pour billions each year, that would be better spent here.

The arguments about trade are ridiculous and the idea that if we left we wouldn't be able to deal with, say, Germany, is ludicrous.

The following is the text of a letter published in the Guardian yesterday under the heading 'What's the EU ever done for us?':

At last we may get a debate on Britain's relationship with Europe (Leader, 11 January). What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

Simon Sweeney
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

Assuming that Mr Sweeney's figures are correct then

a big hole into which we pour billions each year [Simon says]

at a fraction over one percent of our total government expenditure this seems rather good value to me.

[Bryn]

The following is the text of a letter published in the Guardian yesterday under the heading 'What's the EU ever done for us?':

At last we may get a debate on Britain's relationship with Europe (Leader, 11 January). What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

Simon Sweeney
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

Assuming that Mr Sweeney's figures are correct then



at a fraction over one percent of our total government expenditure this seems rather good value to me.

To be fair, Simon did announce in his second sentence what was to follow.

[kernelbogey]

To be fair, Simon did announce in his second sentence what was to follow.

Although it might seem that my post was directed at Simon that was not my intention. I don't quite see the relevance of your post, Bryn.

The point I'm making is against those who say we don't get adequate benefit from membership of the EU and those who claim that measures are 'imposed' on us 'from Brussels'. The message coming over from Germany - and indeed the US - is that we're wanted in the EU. And we have just as much power to negotiate what is 'imposed from Brussels' as the other members.

[MrGongGong]

The EU - in practice - is the least democratic, least accountable political organisation in Europe.

Apart from Bishops in the house of Lords maybe ?
where the undemocratic argument falls over completely

and this

and is destroying, by mis-management and interference (even though some is well-meant), ways of life which have gone on for centuries.

Try telling that to the farmers of Cantal , or the fish smokers of Arbroath

[Simon]

Thank you Col. Bogey.

Simon Sweeney is not of course, biased in any way...

But irrespective of the its author, try analysing the piece properly, and you will find it sadly wanting.

One only has to look at the first comment. The "EU" as an organisation has certainly NOT "provided" 57% of our trade. It has probably interefered with 58% of our trade, but as we were happily trading with its member states - as well is (much more) with the Commonwealth - before the EU even existed, it has in fact "provided" no trade at all. It just happens to have developed in an area where we were trading anyway.

As to cost, all these alleged benefits haven't been free, you know. Couldn't we have used those billions better, ourselves?

But as the old saying goes, some people will believe anything. Dream on, my dear pro-European friends!

[Simon]

Although it might seem that my post was directed at Simon that was not my intention. I don't quite see the relevance of your post, Bryn.

There you join many of us, so often, kb.

In this instance, I may be able to help. Bryn was trying to be clever - not easy for him, so fair play for the effort - and was having a little dig at me. It was, I think, better than many of his past sallies, and I appreciated the twist.

Nonetheless, as usual, it substituted for any attempt to get to grips with the argument.

[teamsaint]

I am sure that Mr Sweeney from York is better informed than me. But a lot of his "benefits " are simply unsubstantiated assertions. Its not hard to find them.some are downright daft.

EG:quote:"investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital."

Well that kind of depends where you view the thing from.A nice chair in a uni department, or the dole queue in the south of spain.

Does he mention the ECB's role in the economic chaos?I couldn't find it.

[MrGongGong]

. These are cultures that are being systematically destroyed by the rigours of EU membership .

What do YOU mean by cultures ?

(this is a serious question)