Europe and the Tories Wagging the Dog

[Beef Oven]

You've been lurking on youtube again haven't you !
all that "EU is a Nazi conspiracy" stuff
go with Svang matey much better for the blood pressure

What I always find odd is that more or less ALL politicians seem to think that the WHOLE purpose of life is to sell stuff
and always think that expansion and success are the same thing........

When one starts to have a conversation with folks about CULTURE (which seems to be VERY important to many nations ) people in Britain get awfully confused indeed......

You've sussed me MrGG! I bin trolling on youtube

Happily, I'm not in living in Britain and I am 75% European, so according to you I am not confused, or am I?

Svang is good for the BP, but this is better ........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY

[Flosshilde]

get real i am not interested in troll games .... poseurs and pseuds fek off, life is too short for your tiresome lack of wit

the answers indicated above will not do ... it is not about trade....

Well, actually it is - that's the whole basis of the organisation.

the question is about whether the EU can possibly be anything that will help the Brits be what they want to be ... and how many quetions does that beg .. ??

That might be a question. The bigger question in that context is what do 'the Brits' want to be. & who are the Brits anyway?


Oh, and if you want your question taken seriously, perhaps you should try to be reasonably accurate -

.seems to me we have had some pretty awful constitutional conveniences in recent times Scottish Independence in isolation, a bodge for the Welsh .... now a referendum which will change the entire UK but only Scots teenagers can vote etc etc ...

which is garbled balderdash.

Like so many of your posts

[Serial_Apologist]

What I always find odd is that more or less ALL politicians seem to think that the WHOLE purpose of life is to sell stuff
and always think that expansion and success are the same thing........

While I agree with the second part of that, I don't think the first part gets to grips with material reality.

Ever since the birth of capitalism - well, even before that, and certainly laying down its preconditions - life, ethics, morality, call it what you will, has been very much a driver driven by producing surpluses - initially the wherewithals to forestall the consequences of flood or drought, later for those with the most power and clout inherent in creaming off their share of the common wealth to gamble away in the stock markets.

As long as we're all hoodwinked into there being only the two alternatives of capitalism and capitalism the situation will remain, with the ruling class divided between gambling politically on making the most for itself out of globalised economics and in effect human trafficking, or falling back on the supposed former security of the nation state with its armed wing - respectively in rather schematic terms represented by unreformed Nu Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Cameron faction of the Tories on the one hand, and right-wing Tory backbenchers, grass-roots members and UKIP on the other.

[MrGongGong]

While I agree with the second part of that, I don't think the first part gets to grips with material reality.
.

I think the point is that we seem to be constantly governed by people who seem to know the price but not the value
and the value is always seen in the same terms
so cue someone doing the old "in the real world" nonsense ............

there are more possibilities than we would imagine (as you rightly say)

[teamsaint]

But in general, the "values" of the EU seem to be about financial control by the ECB, a currency run by and for banks, "free trade" at all costs.
The cherished cultural values are, in my opinion, something of a sop. I wish it wasn't this way.
Follow the money.

[Flosshilde]

"free trade".

Which is the fundamental, founding principle. Everything else stems from that, even the 'social' aspects (just as the ban on smoking in public places in the UK was brought in, ostensibly, for the protection of staff, rather than the good of the customers)

The cherished cultural values are, in my opinion, something of a sop.

'Sop' might be a bit strong - perhaps just taking advantage of the political networks & links to bring people together.

[eighthobstruction]

get real i am not interested in troll games .... poseurs and pseuds fek off, life is too short for your tiresome lack of wit

the answers indicated above will not do ... it is not about trade.... the question is about whether the EU can possibly be anything that will help the Brits be what they want to be ... and how many quetions does that beg .. ??

Indeed....some of those posts are being delivered with all the subtleness of the late Al Read....with a self-indulgent slapping of the knee and a 'How's that then?'.... .... .... ....Pwwsh!!

[teamsaint]

Which is the fundamental, founding principle. Everything else stems from that, even the 'social' aspects (just as the ban on smoking in public places in the UK was brought in, ostensibly, for the protection of staff, rather than the good of the customers)



'Sop' might be a bit strong - perhaps just taking advantage of the political networks & links to bring people together.

Trouble is, Floss, so much so called "Free trade" tends , in fact , to work in favour on monopolistic organisations who can buy market share, or rig contract and subsidy races.
I accept, of course, that free trade is a founding principle.

[Flosshilde]

Oh yes, I agree - so many 'free trade' agreements globally mean that small producers/countries (or not necessarily small countries - just weaker ones) get a very raw deal; the rules are written by the powerful - usually global corporations. Which is why I think that Beef Oven's idea is a non-starter; the UK (if it exists at that point) will be in a weaker position.

[eighthobstruction]

As said on 6 o'clock news....would Vauxhall and Nissan have invested so heavily during the recession had they thought GB might drop out of the EU....

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh yes, I agree - so many 'free trade' agreements globally mean that small producers/countries (or not necessarily small countries - just weaker ones) get a very raw deal; the rules are written by the powerful - usually global corporations. Which is why I think that Beef Oven's idea is a non-starter; the UK (if it exists at that point) will be in a weaker position.

I wouldn't mind if we were being taken out of the EU by a socialist government. The nearest experience to which, arguably, was the Second World War Coalition under Churchill. While not favouring isolation and the rationing that would inevitably ensue, a modern-day digging for victory equivalent would probably work more effectively pro tem with today's better cultivation production methods as well as being edifying (no pun intended) - a socialist government would need to negotiate new trade agreements with for example Latin American countries to mutual, non-US benefitting advantage. It's the Thatcherite idea promulgated by the likes of UKIP implied in capitalism recreated ab initio from rural workshops lorded over by tweedy types reintroducing fox hunting telling would-be volunteers to "Get orff my land you so-and-so townies" and firing off a few warning shots into the "bargain".

[MrGongGong]

I wouldn't mind if we were being taken out of the EU by a socialist government. ".

Of course we aren't being "taken out of the EU" by anyone
I just wish they would shut up about the whole thing and get on with the task in hand
you can't sign a treaty then retrospectively try and "unsign" it if it doesn't suit you any more

[Serial_Apologist]

As said on 6 o'clock news....would Vauxhall and Nissan have invested so heavily during the recession had they thought GB might drop out of the EU....

We're just talking here of one form of management marginally better than the preceding one - Vauxhall and Nissan are just as subject to the ingrained uncertainties of capitalist recession and all that it entails as any firm competing in the rigged market well described in a nutshell by teamsaint - as is now being evidenced by the redundancies. Everyone is expected to go down on bended knee before the generous foreign investors, including newscasters and reporters; no one bothers to thank the workers who actually created the added value in the first place that comes out as profits for the man (usually) who can take his (usually) money somewhere safe when the dice are so loaded.

[eighthobstruction]

We're just talking here of one form of management marginally better than the preceding one - Vauxhall and Nissan are just as subject to the ingrained uncertainties of capitalist recession and all that it entails as any firm competing in the rigged market well described in a nutshell by teamsaint - as is now being evidenced by the redundancies. Everyone is expected to go down on bended knee before the generous foreign investors, including newscasters and reporters; no one bothers to thank the workers who actually created the added value in the first place that comes out as profits for the man (usually) who can take his (usually) money somewhere safe when the dice are so loaded.

Yep, that too for sure....

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course we aren't being "taken out of the EU" by anyone
I just wish they would shut up about the whole thing and get on with the task in hand
you can't sign a treaty then retrospectively try and "unsign" it if it doesn't suit you any more

You may well be right, GG - the "British voting public" will YET AGAIN have to go through the disheartening lessons of learning that the task in hand is one godalmighty diversion from what could be done in a fraction of the time it will take them to decide how to sort things out without writing themselves out of history.