Europe and the Tories Wagging the Dog

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...dear me Heseltine has uttered the phrase 'ill advised' ..... the Toff Boys may find out the other power centre in the Tories apart from those dessicated remnants of Major's administration ...

a debate about the EU, the UK etc etc is undoubtedly overdue but not, for me, on the terms the Tories offer .... it is not about little bits of sovereignty and the visceral loathing of those no hope backbenchers [ if they are against i am for just about automatically ] ....

as a pro EU voter in the last referendum i am pretty completely distressed by the technocrat theft of EU democracy; the attempt at the triumph of will over reality in the great EU currency adventure and so on .... but none of this stuff gets to the base issues for me ... and i find my response to the EU very problematic ... it is a nonsense in many ways but so is the British Establishment and constitution ...

i can not see leaving the EU as anything other than a North Korea solution for the UK; however no Brit empiricist soul wants to be embroiled in continental idealism and grand schemes of rationality dreamt up by Frenchmen eh ......

seems to me we have had some pretty awful constitutional conveniences in recent times Scottish Independence in isolation, a bodge for the Welsh .... now a referendum which will change the entire UK but only Scots teenagers can vote etc etc .... leave the EU what for? and who exactly leaves? it is a nasty mess ....

we will need answers shortly when the banks fold ...

[Beef Oven]

...dear me Heseltine has uttered the phrase 'ill advised' ..... the Toff Boys may find out the other power centre in the Tories apart from those dessicated remnants of Major's administration ...

a debate about the EU, the UK etc etc is undoubtedly overdue but not, for me, on the terms the Tories offer .... it is not about little bits of sovereignty and the visceral loathing of those no hope backbenchers [ if they are against i am for just about automatically ] ....

as a pro EU voter in the last referendum i am pretty completely distressed by the technocrat theft of EU democracy; the attempt at the triumph of will over reality in the great EU currency adventure and so on .... but none of this stuff gets to the base issues for me ... and i find my response to the EU very problematic ... it is a nonsense in many ways but so is the British Establishment and constitution ...

i can not see leaving the EU as anything other than a North Korea solution for the UK; however no Brit empiricist soul wants to be embroiled in continental idealism and grand schemes of rationality dreamt up by Frenchmen eh ......

seems to me we have had some pretty awful constitutional conveniences in recent times Scottish Independence in isolation, a bodge for the Welsh .... now a referendum which will change the entire UK but only Scots teenagers can vote etc etc .... leave the EU what for? and who exactly leaves? it is a nasty mess ....

we will need answers shortly when the banks fold ...

I imagine it's probably best to have an amicable divorce from the EU and replace it with a free-trade common-market type relationship (which is what I suspect we thought it was all about, back in the day).

[MrGongGong]

I imagine it's probably best to have an amicable divorce from the EU and replace it with a free-trade common-market type relationship (which is what I suspect we thought it was all about, back in the day).

"amicable divorce" ??? is that the one where (as the kippers think) afterwards you can still have sex with the ex wife ?
(check out the Svang clip beefy )

[Beef Oven]

"amicable divorce" ??? is that the one where (as the kippers think) afterwards you can still have sex with the ex wife ?
(check out the Svang clip beefy )

When the ex-wife wants to flog millions of Mercs, VeeDubs, Audis, BMWs etc, etc, etc, the orgy will continue!!!

Checked the Svang clip - I also saw them on LWJH

[johnb]

I imagine it's probably best to have an amicable divorce from the EU and replace it with a free-trade common-market type relationship (which is what I suspect we thought it was all about, back in the day).

Do you really think that Germany, etc is going to roll over and say "Sure, you can enjoy all the benefits of a common market, with none of the costs and responsibilities (so you will be able to undercut our industries)"?

Dream on.

The trouble is that the UK perception of the EU is largely influenced by anti-EU propanga in the right leaning press and the swivel eyed Tory little-Englander rednecks. There is little or no general reporting of the EU. I suspect a large part of the antipathy towards the EU is due to a combination of delusions of grandure (forgetting that Brittain no longer rules the waves) and a profound lack of confidence (those beastly continentals are out to get us).

[Flosshilde]

replace it with a free-trade common-market type relationship

That would be OK if all the other members of the EU did the same, which I don't think is going to happen. Otherwise it would be little us in a free-trade common-market type relationship with a very large trading partner - I'm sure you can see who would have the upper hand in any negotiations.

[Beef Oven]

That would be OK if all the other members of the EU did the same, which I don't think is going to happen. Otherwise it would be little us in a free-trade common-market type relationship with a very large trading partner - I'm sure you can see who would have the upper hand in any negotiations.

On the basis that we buy more from the EU than we sell, we would have the upper hand.

[Flosshilde]

How would that give us the upper hand? We would presumably still buy more than we now sell (although I suspect our purchases are a rather small part of internal EU trade), so our need for the EU would be rather greater than their need for us. Or are you saying that we will tell them that we will buy stuff from someone else? Who? Why don't we buy it from them now?

[Beef Oven]

Do you really think that Germany, etc is going to roll over and say "Sure, you can enjoy all the benefits of a common market, with none of the costs and responsibilities (so you will be able to undercut our industries)"?

Dream on.

The trouble is that the UK perception of the EU is largely influenced by anti-EU propanga in the right leaning press and the swivel eyed Tory little-Englander rednecks. There is little or no general reporting of the EU. I suspect a large part of the antipathy towards the EU is due to a combination of delusions of grandure (forgetting that Brittain no longer rules the waves) and a profound lack of confidence (those beastly continentals are out to get us).

Well put! Not the least bit condescendig, arrogant or informed.

I realised as soon as I posted that there would be some views marching towards the thread with an almighty, ill-advised confidence.

[Beef Oven]

How would that give us the upper hand? We would presumably still buy more than we now sell (although I suspect our purchases are a rather small part of internal EU trade), so our need for the EU would be rather greater than their need for us. Or are you saying that we will tell them that we will buy stuff from someone else? Who? Why don't we buy it from them now?

Flossie, work it out for yourself. I could give you the answer but that's not fun

[Flosshilde]

I have worked it out, & your suggestion that our trade balance with the EU (assuming it stayed the same) would give us any advantage if we were no longer a member doesn't add up.

[Beef Oven]

I have worked it out, & your suggestion that our trade balance with the EU (assuming it stayed the same) would give us any advantage if we were no longer a member doesn't add up.

And I put my faith in you!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

get real i am not interested in troll games .... poseurs and pseuds fek off, life is too short for your tiresome lack of wit

the answers indicated above will not do ... it is not about trade.... the question is about whether the EU can possibly be anything that will help the Brits be what they want to be ... and how many quetions does that beg .. ??

[Beef Oven]

get real i am not interested in troll games .... poseurs and pseuds fek off, life is too short for your tiresome lack of wit

the answers indicated above will not do ... it is not about trade.... the question is about whether the EU can possibly be anything that will help the Brits be what they want to be ... and how many quetions does that beg .. ??

Trade and politics are inextricable. That's the whole point. The EU will ruin countries if it sticks to its federalist plan.

[MrGongGong]

Trade and politics are inextricable. That's the whole point. The EU will ruin countries if it sticks to its federalist plan.

You've been lurking on youtube again haven't you !
all that "EU is a Nazi conspiracy" stuff
go with Svang matey much better for the blood pressure

What I always find odd is that more or less ALL politicians seem to think that the WHOLE purpose of life is to sell stuff
and always think that expansion and success are the same thing........

When one starts to have a conversation with folks about CULTURE (which seems to be VERY important to many nations ) people in Britain get awfully confused indeed......