'Requiem'

[Gabriel Jackson]

As to whether you can include 'anything you want it to be' I would have thought is, as jean politely remarked, at the very least open to question and might raise eyebrows just a tad. One's first thoughts might be that a 'requiem' marks a death in some way, is usually serious in tone, chooses texts that have a thought-provoking character, be they religious [whatever that means] or not, and a number of modern requiems from Brahms onward have not.

Setting the lyrics of the Beach Boys 'Rhonda' and calling it a 'requiem' might not quite fill the bill.

It might raise eyebrows, and I can't think of any piece thus titled that isn't concerned with death or remembrance in some way, but "Requiem" is just a word. There are purely instrumental Requiems of course - Henze's being one that comes to mind immediately...

[french frank]

The Henze Requiem (very appropriately mentioned by GJ this week) is divided into movements corresponding to the sections of the Requiem Mass, beginning with the Introit (Requiem aeternam) so could hardly be called anything else even if it is instrumental. Not quite sure what ' "Requiem" is just a word' means, though ... Requiem is a word.

[Gabriel Jackson]

The Henze Requiem (very appropriately mentioned by GJ this week) is divided into movements corresponding to the sections of the Requiem Mass, beginning with the Introit (Requiem aeternam) so could hardly be called anything else even if it is instrumental.

Of course it could be called something else, if the composer so wished!

Not quite sure what ' "Requiem" is just a word' means, though ... Requiem is a word.

I'm sure you can figure it out, if you try.

[french frank]

Of course it could be called something else, if the composer so wished!
I'm sure you can figure it out, if you try.

I'm a linguist, you're a musician. I don't lecture you on music.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I'm a linguist, you're a musician. I don't lecture you on music.

I'm not lecturing anyone! Are you sure you aren't?

[Simon]

Of course it could be called something else, if the composer so wished!

Technically, yes. He could have called it Abendrot am Reeperbahn if he'd wanted. But it wouldn't have been appropriate, and the logical title, given the music, was Requiem. I think that is all that is being suggested.

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As regards Mr Hutchings' work, we've now had chance to listen to the sound file from Cloud. Many congratulations, composer, if you pop in again, on an extremely moving and effective work. It exudes sincerity and I hope that it soon enters the repertoire, because it deserves to. Good to be able to see parts of the score, too.

I thought, at the beginning, which was certainly "different" that it was going to be a bit too avant garde for me, but it didn't turn out so.

In particular, the "Rest Eternal" section brought a lump to my throat, and "Thou knowest, Lord" had a lovely melodic line that is still in my head, whilst managing not to evoke any other setting that I know.

[french frank]

I'm not lecturing anyone! Are you sure you aren't?

Well, old habits die hard ...

I will remove these latest posts to the Ideas & Theory forum where we can investigate why you took issue with my comment in Msg #19: 'Not quite sure what ' "Requiem" is just a word' means, though ... Requiem is a word.' and you replied in Msg #24 'I'm sure you can figure it out, if you try.'

Clearly, I'm not in a position to know what you meant by what you said and it isn't something that I could imagine saying, but perhaps I will be able to figure something out if I try. I will retitle the thread 'Requiem', and come back with my response later this evening after I've moved the discussion over.

[french frank]

Well, getting back to the assertion that ‘Requiem is just a word’, I queried exactly what this meant because it seemed to me to have no more meaning than ‘wine is just a liquid’: you can wash your hair in it, water the plants with it, put it in the cistern and flush the toilet with it. And you can, because it’s a liquid. But you don’t.

So with the title of a musical work: a composer is as free to put any name on it as he is to water his plants with wine. But I don’t believe composers usually pick on a random word: Plank, Kiosk, Pin, and then say well, it’s just a word.

Requiem is not ‘just a word’: it’s a special word. It’s a Latin word, a noun, meaning ‘rest’. It’s a noun in the accusative case, and therefore implies some unexpressed context where it is the object of a verb. As such, it suggests the phrase ‘Requiem aeternam (dona eis, domine)’, and the Catholic Mass for the Dead. If it had been Requies it wouldn’t have had those associations even though both are 'just words'.

Now, it seems quite reasonable to me to call a piece of music Requiem, or A Requiem, if it has associations with death and rest, so I see no problem with the Brand New Requiem having that title even if it doesn’t set the words of the Mass. The concept of eternal rest hasn’t been copyrighted.

Coming to Henze’s instrumental Requiem, I simply pointed that it was divided into movements, each of which had the title of a section of the Mass for the Dead, beginning with the Introit (Requiem aeternam). At this point I very rashly said that it ‘could hardly be called anything else’ but Requiem. Quite absurd. It could have been called ‘So, farewell then’, or ‘Gone but not forgotten’, or ‘In memory of my old friend Karl’. But such titles would have lost something which had been gained by taking the trouble to name the movements after the sections of the Requiem, so I find the objection to my comment slightly nitpicking.

But this is why I find the statement ‘Requiem is just a word’ puzzling.

[Thropplenoggin]

This has a whiff of Wonderland about it:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

[french frank]

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."[/I]

Of course, a lot of words do mean many different things, but not an infinite number of different things.

[Simon]

And specific words mean specific things, which is fortunate, because that's how we use them.

DEQ?

[Thropplenoggin]

If only Wittgenstein were here to join in our jolly language-game!

[teamsaint]

And specific words mean specific things, which is fortunate, because that's how we use them.

DEQ?

more heavy irony, Simes?

but words in fact have are closer to a part of a spectrum, aren't they? and the difficulty is in transmitting the meaning in the way that we intend, to a listener or reader who brings an entirely different set of experiences to that word.
The word " requiem" means, to quite a lot of folk, this jolly tune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7WPI4TJImo

and not all that much else in any other way that is very meaningful.

[teamsaint]

This has a whiff of Wonderland about it:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

more than a whiff...never thought of HD as being an early literary theorist.......an area of study that makes wonderland seem a positively normal place...

[Thropplenoggin]

'Death of the Word' is the new 'Death of the Author'.