Democracy and Monarchy

[eighthobstruction]

I wouldn't predict drastic change here in the UK.

....No, there has been a 1000 years of creating Lords - Dukes - Counts - Marquis'....who while visibly are in the back ground now....are still the landowners , the Chairmen/Board members ; loud and silent etc etc....with their liegemen now CEO's etc of finance/ industry/ comodities/ utilities etc etc....(a feminine version of this post is available by downloading my App)....

[smittims]

'Perhaps the older someone is, the more the Queen meant to them'

Hmm... well, I'm 70, born a few days after the late Queen succeeded her father, so my whole life has coincided with her reign.

I've always thought constitutional monarchy is the most stable form of government, and I admired the Queen. I did think of putting on a black tie on Friday, but decided it was a bit twee. But I don't feel any need to 'mourn'. That's for her friends and relatives. Most people knew her only as a character in the media. Everyone knows the TV news media are desperate for viewers. And now they're drunk with euphoria on finding a 'Big Event' , even bigger than 'Strickly'.

[Joseph K]

But 'mourning' - only in a technical, official sense not on a personal level.

I'm afraid I don't understand this distinction.

If I have any exasperation it's for the people who can't just sigh and put up with it all until it's over, but have to make a fuss about their football/concert/theatre/television programme being cancelled or even for renewed complaints about the monarchy and all that it entails (which is not to deny the justice of the political case). No need to make it all about one's personal obsessions.

'Or even for renewed complaints about the monarchy' as though this were the very height of folly! And whose personal obsessions are these, I wonder?

I'm indifferent about the death of the Queen - but will renew my opposition to the monarchy and communicate this renewal in the face of apparent forelock-tugging from its subjects.

[french frank]

I'm afraid I don't understand this distinction.

Difficult to explain in that case, but 'mourning' is just a word. It can have different nuances according to context. When my own mother died I felt the loss emotionally. When a national figure dies, I don't feel the loss emotionally (although in some cases I may feel relief rather than grief), but I recognise that 'the state' officially may wish to mark what is 'a loss' albeit not a personal one. In both cases the word 'mourning' is used but the experience is felt differently. I would prefer the word 'respect' to be used but, not for the first time, that is just my own view. Others are available.

'Or even for renewed complaints about the monarchy' as though this were the very height of folly! And whose personal obsessions are these, I wonder?

That is a little wilful to simply ignore that I added 'which is not to deny the justice of the political case'. It's not the political opinion, the view, that I comment on but the public display.

I'm indifferent about the death of the Queen - but will renew my opposition to the monarchy and communicate this renewal in the face of apparent forelock-tugging from its subjects.

Even those with impeccable political credentials are allowed also to display their credentials as human beings without weakening their political views. But these are only another person's opinion - as an individual you can choose to be the kind of person you wish to be.

[oddoneout]

My guess is most people in this nation are not in fact mourning.

In some respects you may well be correct - joining in public displays of emotion is not necessarily grief. What I do think many are feeling is a sense of dislocation, unease, that someone who has always been there, a certainty, regardless of one's views of the monarchy or anything to do with the royal family, has gone. There is nothing rational about it - she was old and each year that went by brought this moment closer - but that's not how humans work. One can still feel shock that the inevitable has happened. At work today many of us were in reflective mood - our parents of the Queen's generation, a reminder of our own mortality. I don't think any of us were grieving for or mourning the Queen as such, but emotions were certainly closer to the surface than usual.
Like ff I did not join in the Diana effect, and I am not comfortable with the trend it seemed to cause, nor the nastiness that can sometimes arise when not everyone joins in, but I don't feel it is for me to judge. It's just another point of difference.

[Joseph K]

There is nothing rational about it - she was old and each year that went by brought this moment closer - but that's not how humans work.

You are absolutely right - it's an irrational reaction, though such a reaction is certainly not regardless of one's views of the monarchy - I would say the default position on this would be total indifference at her death, not dislocation or unease. I guess I'm more optimistic in thinking that most people are rational enough not to be mourning.

[eighthobstruction]

You are absolutely right - it's an irrational reaction, though such a reaction is certainly not regardless of one's views of the monarchy - I would say the default position on this would be total indifference at her death, not dislocation or unease. I guess I'm more optimistic in thinking that most people are rational enough not to be mourning.

....tell you what JK....what I am realising (not from out and out MEDIA) but from R3 offerings - poetry, hearing her speeches at diff' times of her life, things NOT commentary from talking heads....is what it was to be queen, and that I am finding interesting....

....of course there are the horses, stags, hunting, castles, landowner etc etc side of it too....

....mourning - shshmmourning....I've had a nice day....

[oddoneout]

You are absolutely right - it's an irrational reaction, though such a reaction is certainly not regardless of one's views of the monarchy - I would say the default position on this would be total indifference at her death, not dislocation or unease. I guess I'm more optimistic in thinking that most people are rational enough not to be mourning.

I would disagree about indifference being the default position, since if asked I think the majority of people would express a view of some sort. Certainly the many visitors at work were not indifferent, even if not pro-monarchy. Using the terms "mourning" or "grieving" is perhaps for many a convenient and acceptable way of saying that they are feeling emotion of some kind, without having to give detail or analyse what those emotions actually are.

[french frank]

Using the terms "mourning" or "grieving" is perhaps for many a convenient and acceptable way of saying that they are feeling emotion of some kind, without having to give detail or analyse what those emotions actually are.

Yes, even if you take someone as close to her as, er, King Charles (no forelock-tugging here: I would have treated Her Maj as an equal had I met her), but to return: someone as close to her as Charles may have very mixed feelings. Was he looking forward to being King and thinking "About bloody time" or was he thinking: "Oh, well, I was beginning to hope I might snuff it before she did"? Would he actually have preferred his life as an organic farmer wbo can make his views on climate change clear? How many people would actually covet his life - all of it, that is, or indeed genuinely covet the privilege?

And that's not say you can't hold republican views and want to see the end of the monarchy ASAP.

[ahinton]

Leaving aside anyone's personal viewpoint, is there not at least some case to be made out for the fact that, even at age 96, the sheer suddenness generated more shock than might otherwise have been the case? After all, there she was last Tuesday afternoon, disposing of Boris Johnson and giving her endorsement to Liz Truss as PM and looking in reasonable health (apart from a slight stoop) while doing so yet within 48 hours or so she'd died...

[Maclintick]

For those suffering from media over-saturation as regards monarchical coverage, I recommend this...lots of activity here this evening...

https://youtu.be/mphg2feuAPo

[french frank]

After all, there she was last Tuesday afternoon, disposing of Boris Johnson and giving her endorsement to Liz Truss as PM and looking in reasonable health (apart from a slight stoop) while doing so yet within 28 hours or so she'd died...

Who was it - Franco? - who took ages a-dying? Like about five weeks?

Aha, found this: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...s-on-1.2437353

At least there's more going on than the endless 'Grave' 'Más grave' headlines. Watch it on the telly or go and do something else, as ostentatiously as you will.

[Serial_Apologist]

I remember many people, at the time of Diana's death and the ensuing media overkill, saying, "Yes, but just imagine what it will be like come the time of the Queen's". So this was to be the expected reaction to the unexpected event - no doubt Charles might have liked to have had more time, a more protracted decline, to think over whether he now preferred his existing status and the relative freedom it conferred, and maybe announce that he was passing on the succession to William. Personally I've been fascinated observing vox populi responding to mike carrying reporters in various random locations, trying to figure out from them what it is that appeals about having a monarchy rather than elected president. I enjoyed watching the limo carrying the new king from Northolt Airport to Buck Palace viewed from a police helicopter, presumably, and following the journey with an OS map. I rather expect in the next few days the woman who kissed HRH a short distance into his walkabout prior to entering the palace to be front paged on the Sun.

[eighthobstruction]

....has someone tampered with this thread....there seem to be several 'non contraversial' messages that have been taken away ???????????....OI !!!!!

[ucanseetheend]

Total garbage posts! "Words and phrases like "daily mail" "attack dogs" "government control". Some of the left political trash need to respect a programme of music and the cancellation of normality during a mourning process . This is something that the BBC would have planned for years ago,.so dream up your conspiracy theories as it clearly gives a personal 'kick' at this time !