Alleged and actual sexual assault and harrassment

[smittims]

Although this is really a Radio4 topic (discussed on 'Woman's Hour' yesterday and today) I've often felt like airing it here as I'd like to know what people think. I've hesitated because I know it's an area where feelings run high, and it can be easy to say something 'politically-incorrect' . Nevertheless I think that risk has to be taken if our society is going to resolve this growing problem.

To illustrate this here are two quotations from yesterday's 'Woman's Hour'. A father in his fifties said 'four out of five of us have had our sons accused of "sexual assault" (his quotation marks). It is now out of control.' This was countered by one of the speakers reiterating the frequent claim that false accusations are 'extremely rare'. But if, as has been said, only four per cent of rape allegations end in a conviction, does this not suggest that there are probably quite a few false accusations?

A woman listener asked 'Is anyone going to have the courage to say, why do young girls wear such short skirts and make themselves look like young women, with a very sexual presentation, and what do they expect young boys to do? Why don't their parents teach them something about modesty?' This was immediately condemned as 'victim-blaming'.

I know I'm a old man from a very different century, but I do think I'm often hearing only one side of the story. It's surely a biological fact that heterosexual males are pre-programmed to desire females . It's surely no concidence that women's fashions in our civilisation emphasise the legs and breasts, known objects of male attraction, and that women choose to wear them because they like men to look at them .

Yes, they have the legal right and freedom to dress this way without being molested, but is it sensible? I have the legal right to enter a pub in Anfield on a Saturday night when Liverpool FC have suffered a crushing defeat and air my views on the competence iof their players, but it would be unwise to do so. I have the legal right to drive a car at 29 mph in a built-up area, but it isn't always safe to do so. With freedom comes responsibility. Should we hear less aboiut victim-blaming and more about contributory negligence?

Other traditional civilisations since the year dot have attempted to manage this problem by controlling and restricting women. Our civilisation has chosen to consider this unacceptable and has allowed progressive freedom and emancipation, amd I think this has brought inevitable problems in its wake which may not have been foreseen. It seems to me that if this problem is to be resolved it must involve some form of 'truth and reconciliation' process , with both sides admitting their faults. I'm not hearing this yet, in the discussions I've heard .

I could go on... (as they say) but I'll leave it for now and let you consider. Caitlin Moran is expected to speak on this subject in today's 'Woman' Hour'. I won't anticipate her stance but I'm cringing in advance...

[Joseph K]

I know I'm a old man from a very different century, but I do think I'm often hearing only one side of the story. It's surely a biological fact that heterosexual males are pre-programmed to desire females . It's surely no concidence that women's fashions in our civilisation emphasise the legs and breasts, known objects of male attraction, and that women choose to wear them because they like men to look at them .

Yes, they have the legal right and freedom to dress this way without being molested, but is it sensible? I have the legal right to enter a pub in Anfield on a Saturday night when Liverpool FC have suffered a crushing defeat and air my views on the competence iof their players, but it would be unwise to do so. I have the legal right to drive a car at 29 mph in a built-up area, but it isn't always safe to do so. With freedom comes responsibility. Should we hear less aboiut victim-blaming and more about contributory negligence?

Do you have any evidence that suggests sexual assault happens to women because of their clothing (or more to women because of their particular kind of clothing?) Or indeed that women choose to wear something to capture the gaze of men?

Trying to draw equivalence between wearing some particular kind of clothing and sexually assaulting someone, as though both of these things are just as bad, isn't great, to put it incredibly mildly. Why is the responsibility of freedom on women's shoulders only?

[french frank]

Men have to learn and evolve with the times. What advice do you give to attractive little boys to prevent them from being assaulted or harassed?

[Bryn]

[Petrushka]

This is an incredibly difficult topic to rationally discuss. It's one I could have plenty to say about but would almost certainly end up in hot water so I'm keeping out.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I understand the point you are advancing for discussion, and sorry I'm not entering that - I do not have the time.

Just to make the point that anyone with an insight into the criminal justice system knows there is a vast gulf between what you, I, the victim and others "know" and proving it to the satisfaction of a jury after a lengthy, defended trial. If there is that level of offending, and every complainant is to get a jury trial, expect criminal justice budgets to outgrow the NHS and Defence.

There just cannot be a meaningful correlation between the level of offending asserted on Woman's Hour and the conviction (or bringing to trial) rate. Countless allegations do not end up with a charge or a trial for a panoply of reasons. Of course the asserted rate of offending needs to be substantiated.

I happened to see an interview with Caitlin Moran on Newsnight (Tues. or Wens.) and she feels the needs of young men have been neglected in the conversations and debates of the past decade or so - a sensible conversation, so she may have ideas for change in the WH interview.

Radio 4 on in the background and tuning in my attention "now and then" was usual for me, but when the new guard came in a year or two back and the approach became more combative I stopped "listening" and turned off the Radio by 10am. Nowadays its choice from BBC sounds, streaming or CD if I'm in one place, or even silence, until noon for me.

[richardfinegold]

I think that smittens elucidated the issue very well. I especially like his comparison to more traditional cultures that keep woman under wraps, and his acknowledgement that western societies find this unacceptable. I do think that young man get caught in a bind. Popular Culture extols sexuality in every way imaginable, but then the punishment for starting to act on these cultivated impulses can be draconian.
Before the pandemic there were studies showing that young people are less likely to actually meet in person than formerly, preferring the on line world. Many of them cited the problems that arise when mixed messages and misunderstandings creep into casual interactions.
I don’t know what the solution is. Many people don’t acknowledge that there is an issue. I am glad that I am old and very happily married and that both of my sons are in stable long term relationships. My daughter in law is a Psychologist and I have already heard her give lectures to my 10 year old grandson about appropriate versus non appropriate touching. He is a gentle and thoughtful (for that age) child but he does become exuberant and a bit physical, although I notice he is much less “handsy ” when around girls than he is with his male counterparts .

[Sir Velo]

Like all other animals humans are genetically programmed to procreate in order that the species may thrive. Thus, for the species to survive it is necessary that the males have a strong enough urge to reproduce. Where that urge is frustrated, that's where the problems start.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This is an important topic upon which I have views but discussing it here is unlikely to be helpful, and could lead to conflict (and “hot water”).

Thread closed.