Working to Net Zero?

[oddoneout]

Good luck with that. Did you hear the recent comment - was it on Any Questions or Any Answers from someone who lives in a National Park. Apparently he wanted to put in an ASHP, but that's effectively blocked for a couple of reasons. First he's not allowed to change the exterior appearance of his building - even though his suggestions might be reasonable, and secondly he can't put up external insulation as that would need to be rendered - and thus fall foul of the first rule. Also he presumably wouldn't be eligible for a grant or interest free loan without installing additional insulation - basically this country is bonkers and stuffed - seemingly run by malevolent morons - or maybe they are aren't morons - simply cunningly malevolent!

Re our ASHP installation - the hot water doesn't work yet again - so now on the 4th or is it 5th call out call someone to come and help to get this up and running. Fortunately I've not paid in full yet, and I'm not now going to unless the whole thing works properly.

In the meantime I am trying to get my car [Tesla] fixed. I think Tesla are top of the league for appalling customer service.

Fortunately I don't live in an area or a house subject to such restrictions, and it is quite common for the terrace houses in this road(and elsewhere) to have the single storey rear rendered; my neighbour on one side still has the as-built layout of narrow kitchen and the space where the toilet was, and this summer had the end wall rendered and painted to match the wall facing the small courtyard outside their back door. Doing mine would improve the outlook from their kitchen window and the amount of light they get, as brick isn't reflective...

As you say things don't make sense in this country, especially when you consider Ukraine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/05/20/ukraine-solar-hospitals-attack-russia/

The TV documentary touched on the problem in this country of onshore wind being blocked by government.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/28/ukraine-built-more-onshore-wind-turbines-last-year-than-england

[Dave2002]

Just checked a few details.

Apparently there are around 28 million households in the UK.
There are around 20 million houses.

Clearly some households live in shared accommodation, or may not be full time resident in the UK.

At the rates of installation of ASHPs mentioned in the article in msg 14, it might take at least 23 years to install ASHPs across the whole of the UK - that's at a max rate of 3000 per month, and assuming that the installation would be across 20 million houses. That is also at the current rate of installation, which it seems is the highest it's been.

However, many houses or dwellings are not really suitable for ASHPs.

[Dave2002]

Fortunately I don't live in an area or a house subject to such restrictions, and it is quite common for the terrace houses in this road(and elsewhere) to have the single storey rear rendered; my neighbour on one side still has the as-built layout of narrow kitchen and the space where the toilet was, and this summer had the end wall rendered and painted to match the wall facing the small courtyard outside their back door. Doing mine would improve the outlook from their kitchen window and the amount of light they get, as brick isn't reflective...

As you say things don't make sense in this country, especially when you consider Ukraine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/05/20/ukraine-solar-hospitals-attack-russia/

The TV documentary touched on the problem in this country of onshore wind being blocked by government.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/28/ukraine-built-more-onshore-wind-turbines-last-year-than-england

It's amazing that the situation in Ukraine is spurring on renewables deployment. Thanks for pointing those links out.

[Dave2002]

Update on our ASHP installation - apparently there is a relay which has failed in the circuit to do the switch between the CH and the hot water cylinder, so this allows heat to be drawn from the cylinder after it has heated up. This time the manufacturer's agent will visit to refit a circuit board - so we'll have to stay in for yet another day when that gets scheduled.

[Dave2002]

Another example of HMG backsliding - https://www.endsreport.com/article/1...30-at-earliest

[Dave2002]

Update on our ASHP installation - apparently there is a relay which has failed in the circuit to do the switch between the CH and the hot water cylinder, so this allows heat to be drawn from the cylinder after it has heated up. This time the manufacturer's agent will visit to refit a circuit board - so we'll have to stay in for yet another day when that gets scheduled.

I'm surprised that relays are still used. I would have thought that power transistors might do the job better. However I have learned from the experience - I hadn't thought about the need for a different way to differentiate heat for central heating versus hot water before,

[gradus]

An interesting discussion, always good to hear from people with hands-on experience. We are likely to need to replace an aged oil-fired boiler heating a listed cottage and should install ASHP but almost certainly won't. Listing effectively prevents energy saving measures that might enable a low temperature heating system to heat effectively. Timber framed, thin walled cottages are protected structures, and we are told that improved insulation could cause damage by inhibiting or preventing the circulation of air within the building. Listed houses are relatively few in number - 400k-500k - but they will continue to rely on discredited forms of heating - oil and solid fuel - for the foreseeable future until ASHP or GSHP become more efficient and much cheaper. Local energy schemes including Community Heating could embrace listed properties but their adoption depends on a combination of community action - not easy to muster where communities are mostly post-retirement - and sustained local and national government financial support. There is also a pressing need to simplify the confusing, complicated mass of organisations that all do slightly different but similar things in the energy sector.

[Dave2002]

An interesting discussion, always good to hear from people with hands-on experience. We are likely to need to replace an aged oil-fired boiler heating a listed cottage and should install ASHP but almost certainly won't.

Do you have conventional water filled radiators and pipework?

Replacing an aged oil boiler was where we started - and realistically it was on its last legs. New oil boilers are likely to be better.

One issue which is often raised is the lower temperature heat output of ASHPs, plus also some alarm spreading about the "need" for insulation. ASHPs are clearly capable of raising water to a good temperature for hot water, and for showers. I know of people who have had HPs [both GSHP and ASHP] working with radiators - so the technology works. My suspicion is that the issue about insulation is, for many houses and people, a complete red herring. If you have relatively poor insulation now [because of the listed building and related issues] then you are already paying more for heating with the oil boiler - a lot of the generated heat will dissipate. The situtation would not be any different with ASHPs, even if the water temperature is slightly lower. Of course if you are never able to generate enough heat in really cold weather [undesirable] then the situation would be worse with a lower temperature heat source, though bear in mind that both oil and electric based heatings systems are reliant on the grid being available. In the limit there could still be a need for some backup - to avoid the need for Dr Zhivago style burning of your furniture. In our case we use a log fire as our emergency backup, and that is capable of heating one end of the house quite comfortably. If you were to even consider an ASHP you would need to have the unit outside, with some internal plumbing, and the external ASHP could fall foul of the "listing police".

If you have any ground area you could consider ground source heat pumps, which I suspect wouldn't need so much visible kit outside.

Another option - if you are allowed to do it - and we know people who have this system - is to have a vertical hole drilled down in order to have the GSHP put into a vertical hole - usually going down about 100 metres! That seems to work very well, but requires some form of geology survey, and finding people who are able and capable of drilling the holes and then getting them linked up to a heat pump installer is quite difficult. We found someone who was prepare to do a geo survey on our land - for around £500, and maybe drill the hole for say another £500, but then finding the next part of the link - an installer who could put vertical pipes into a hole and get them linked to a heat pump proved to be very difficult.

Is there any reason why you couldn't have a vertical bore hole system?

The problem with much of this is that there just aren't enough "joined up" people who know about this kind of heating system technology in the UK to make any of it work. Different teams tend only to concentrate on one form of technology, and of course some of them are competing with others in the same field.

[gradus]

The 'joined-up' problem is a major issue and a deterrent when people start investigating the alternative systems and discover the apparently random structure of grants linked to geographical location etc.
My modest grasp of GSHP leads me to think it is at least part of the way to go for our village but I failed in my attempt to get our PC to a sufficient level of engagement to enable me to apply for funding the alternative energy source survey that would have told us if GS would be effective and where bore holes should be drilled, up to £30k was available but there's nothing at present. Still we keep looking.

[oddoneout]

Do you have conventional water filled radiators and pipework?
Replacing an aged oil boiler was where we started - and realistically it was on its last legs. New oil boilers are likely to be better.

One issue which is often raised is the lower temperature heat output of ASHPs, plus also some alarm spreading about the "need" for insulation. ASHPs are clearly capable of raising water to a good temperature for hot water, and for showers.
But do they do so unaided? My understanding is that there needs to be some form of top-up system as the ASHP heated water doesn't get to a high enough temperature in itself. It's one of the (several) issues that mitigate against my opting for ASHP to replace the combi gas boiler - I would need a hot water tank with immersion or some equivalent set-up.

I know of people who have had HPs [both GSHP and ASHP] working with radiators - so the technology works.
It does work with radiators provided they are of a suitable design; I would need to replace most, possibly all of mine, although at least I wouldn't have the added complication of microbore plumbing.

My suspicion is that the issue about insulation is, for many houses and people, a complete red herring.
Not a complete red herring. British homes are notoriously lacking in the insulation department - even a newbuild might only be to the minimum the developer can get away with(and the regulations are set low), not the optimum (or even near in some cases I suspect) and even then there can be issues with shoddy installation creating cold bridges, condensation and possibly mould. The HP heating operates at lower temperatures which are adequate for space heating if heat isn't being lost from the building fabric, ie if insulation is up to scratch.
If you have relatively poor insulation now [because of the listed building and related issues] then you are already paying more for heating with the oil boiler - a lot of the generated heat will dissipate. The situation would not be any different with ASHPs, even if the water temperature is slightly lower.
That's true but the ASHP isn't designed to quickly crank up the heat unless you sacrifice the energy in/energy out benefits. Raising the circulating water temperature (which is quite a bit lower than with a boiler system) will require energy input.



The problem with much of this is that there just aren't enough "joined up" people who know about this kind of heating system technology in the UK to make any of it work. Different teams tend only to concentrate on one form of technology, and of course some of them are competing with others in the same field.

It's all very half-arsed frankly - perhaps inevitably. Mainland Europe has extensive experience of heat pumps over many years and in often more challenging environments than the UK, so it's not as if the necessary information isn't available...

I apologise in advance for this not being differentiated as to quote and my comments - I hope some sense can be made of it as I can't face trying to do it again. As it is I will have to login again as I've take too long to reply!

[Dave2002]

I apologise in advance for this not being differentiated as to quote and my comments - I hope some sense can be made of it as I can't face trying to do it again. As it is I will have to login again as I've take too long to reply!

Re heating up hot water - how hot do you want it to be? OK - it's not quite scalding, and not boiling, but it is pretty hot. So no problem there. There is a need to have an auxiliary heat source which is mandated to heat the water up to a temperature high enough to see of Legionella, but that's only needed once a week. If necessary the auxiliary heat source [typically an immersion heater] could be used to supplement the ASHP generated hot water - but really it's not needed.

The insulation issue is a red herring in so far as it is not any better or worse than it would be for oil or gas heating. The fact is that a lot of heat is wasted with fossil fuels, so that is already built in to the economic model. Thus there is already a penalty for listed buildings which may have inherently poor heat retention, and it is often not permitted to change that. For example windows which are not permitted to be replaced by double glazing because the original building was made using Crittall metal windows, or was made two or three centuries ago with much poorer materials. It is true that with heat pump heating the circulating water temperatures are lower - which means that getting a rapid change of temperature is harder, but on the other hand presumably the cooling rate based on Newton's law is also going to be slower. The operation of a system has to be done slightly differently - get close to the desired operating temperature, and then only let it vary slowly.

The reason I consider the radiation concerns a red herring is that often under the various grant and loan schemes these are coupled with insulation requirements, so that refunds for payments to installers may be held back. Perhaps I was over concerned - but I've yet to be sure. To bring our house up to the current insulation standards would be prohibitively expensive, as the lofts are full of stuff we have stored up there, and there is quite a large area to cover. We had a report about the effectiveness of installing an ASHP and also installing more insulation. Most of the benefits for cost and CO2 reduction were due to the ASHP installation, so in my opinion it would be unreasonable to withold funds "promised" in order to force us to install even more insulation. Also there are issues about insulation, and ventilation. Some insulation - such as foam insulation causes mould or other problems, and wool, which I'd thought was likely to be very good, can - and does - deteriorate very rpidly due to moth infestation. It turns out that some of the advisors [here Energy Saving Trust Scotland] are aware of problems, and seem reasonable - but we'll have to see whether this does lead to the desired outcomes.

[JasonPalmer]

Its too late to stop human extinction due to climate change.

[Dave2002]

Its too late to stop human extinction due to climate change.

Ah - so "we're all doomed" - Dad's army style, are we?

[gradus]

I'm reading A Land by Jacquetta Hawkes which reminds me that the Earth's development has been so extreme in its unpredictability that it is a wonder that we exist at all. That is definitely not to say that we shouldn't try to neutralise as far as possible the harmful effects of our 'civilisation' upon the planet.

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm reading A Land by Jacquetta Hawkes which reminds me that the Earth's development has been so extreme in its unpredictability that it is a wonder that we exist at all. That is definitely not to say that we shouldn't try to neutralise as far as possible the harmful effects of our 'civilisation' upon the planet.

Well we've been given enough warning over the past 20-30 years - the trouble seems to be the wrong kind of investment, by which this time I refer to the psychological investment too many people these days feel pressured to make in their own blind certitudes, as if all reason for living depended on them.