Coronation Chicken

[french frank]

... well, 1793-1794 in France and 1848-1849 across Europe had their moments. The reviews I have seen of the excellent Christopher Clark's new book - Revolutionary Spring: Fighting for a New World 1848-1849 - draw parallels with the Europe of today...

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I'm not referring to revolutions (we've had a Peasants' Revolt and a civil war against abolute monarchs. Brexit is more to the point: people getting angry as in Road Rage, Air Rage. When was 'anger management' invented and why? (1975 is the first OED example)

[Tevot]

But I stand in need of a lesson here: when Marx said "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" that necessarily implies that abilities and needs are different - and unequal. So is the slogan the first step towards the equal society or is does there remain a continual need for readjustment (even after monarchy and capitalism have been abolished)?

That imho is an exceptionally good question Frenchie. I'm certainly no ideologue but perhaps Marx was referring to the transition towards socialism (where the haves were encouraged / obliged to support the have nots) prior to the ultimate emergence of Communism where the agencies of the State would wither away?

[Serial_Apologist]

What does seem to be the case is that individuals get angry more often and more violently than in the past.

This is just one aspect of divide-and-rule as manifest in how capitalism, and the underlying ideology sustaining it, divides not only exploiter from exploited, but the individual as producer against himself or herself as consumer. Everyone who has been an employee and a shopper has known this intimately, yet people put up with exploitation if they can make up for it on nights out when they can feel empowered at the expense of downward deflected internalised resentment and play the entitlement role. But on top of this is a massive sense of disillusionment resulting from the ending of the consumerist era dreams: first in order the realisation that standardisation had resulted in identical shopping malls and the fashions on offer therein worldwide; secondly the decimation of choice being exercised in precincts that offered said choice while offering get-together meeting places, which the ubiquitous rise of IT and the PC/mobile phone have profitably rendered obsolete, deferring purchasing to unsocial online delivery services from Amazon etc for goods largely manufactured in the Third World. The private, isolated individual in their car cage or on the selfie phone, assumes precedence over their objectively defining social matrix, and then rails against it by lashing out against all the unfairnesses of life once assumed to be ameliorated through collective support and action. You're on your own, buddy, and you chose to be!

This is in part in answer to french frank's raising the matter of "anger management", the sticking plaster to a much bigger problem.

[Serial_Apologist]

That imho is an exceptionally good question Frenchie. I'm certainly no ideologue but perhaps Marx was referring to the transition towards socialism (where the haves were encouraged / obliged to support the have nots) prior to the ultimate emergence of Communism where the agencies of the State would wither away?

Marx is always (deliberately imv) misrepresented as having stood for "absolute equality". Whatever it is that people mean when they use this term, he always advocated for a differential in pay between those undertaking menial tasks of little skill and those whose skill requirements necessitated a period of training or apprenticeship for which they could expect to be re-imbursed. But Marx was speaking from a period in which apprentices and trainees were often expected to pay for their own skills training. As regards higher pay for management, the model of socialism back then envisaged automation replacing unnecessary physical labour, not for purposes of advantaging competitive position but releasing more free time for socially and personally enriching activity and a bottom-up planned system of production and distribution in which productive and supervisory roles would be interchangeable and decided by workplace election.

[french frank]

Marx is always (deliberately imv) misrepresented as having stood for "absolute equality".

Helpful comments, S_A. I didn't imagine Marx meant 'absolute' equality - if such a thing could exist. I understand 'A (much) more equal society than we have'. And I understand when in relation to the current joyful occasion someone objects that 'you can't pledge allegiance to an equal'. And I accept that in human terms we are all equal. But it still leaves the question What is meant by equality?

However, having won a ticket to attend the coronation in person I travel up on the train with my Senior Rail Card and make my way through the throng to the abbey. And when invited I throw my cap in the air and shout God save the King, Long live the King, May the King live for ever! And say "Aye, verily" or whatever I'm supposed to say when invited to pledge allegiance. Then I put my cap on again and catch the train home, and don't expect to give the chap much of a thought again. I take it all as play-acting, it's a pretend medieval ritual, meaningless, a show, nothing to get worked up about because pledging my allegiance means nothing. (The anger management course has done wonders).

[Barbirollians]

As for coronation chicken even for this vegetarian I can see it is a better dish than this dreary coronation quiche.

[vinteuil]

means nothing

... I worry that Fr: Fr: has reached a state of alienation.

Serial may find it a praiseworthy state of Śūnyatā - but as the product of a western enlightenment tradition, i wd prefer to see her achieve a sense of attachment and meaning ....


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[Barbirollians]

On topic I doubt I shall be watching I certainly won’t be making the absurd oath of allegiance and I can understand why republicans consider the idea of it offensive.

[eighthobstruction]

... I worry that Fr: Fr: has reached a state of alienation.

Serial may find it a praiseworthy state of Śūnyatā - but as the product of a western enlightenment tradition, i wd prefer to see her achieve a sense of attachment and meaning ....


.

....ff est plano....??....avec casquette?....ça ne peut pas être....bof

[RichardB]

I understand 'A (much) more equal society than we have'.

That of course is a formulation open to all kinds of liberal fudging. Those famous words of Marx ("from each... to each") mean exactly what they seem to mean. Some people are for example blind and need some help negotiating a mostly sighted world. Other people might be able to design and build technologies which make that easier. Marx looked forward to a communism which would eventually do away not just with class but also with money, so the concept of one person "earning" more than another wouldn't arise. It's a vision of a radical degree of equality which is (apparently) almost impossible to imagine under the present conditions of, to use vinteuil's term, alienation. And, returning to the topic, obviously there would be no place for inherited privilege in such a situation. So, ejecting the royal family from their position in society doesn't necessarily bring equality any closer in itself, but it's going to have to happen at some point in a transition towards a more equal society, in the context of which it's a fairly minor issue of course, apart from the present indignation caused by someone having the bright idea of rubbing everyone's noses in that privilege by proposing this "allegiance" nonsense.

[french frank]

... I worry that Fr: Fr: has reached a state of alienation.

Serial may find it a praiseworthy state of Śūnyatā - but as the product of a western enlightenment tradition, i wd prefer to see her achieve a sense of attachment and meaning ....


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To me it's a matter of sorting out what really matters; or rather, more easily perhaps, what doesn't matter and not bothering with it. But yes, mistakes could be made ...

[french frank]

Marx looked forward to a communism which would eventually do away not just with class but also with money, so the concept of one person "earning" more than another wouldn't arise.

I wonder whether he ever 'looked forward' with any degree of optimism to it ever being realised? As for 'liberal fudging', is that the alternative to the 'nirvana fallacy'?

[muzzer]

I may end up swearing some sort of oath, but it won’t be of allegiance. I’m here all week, by the way, but I can’t speak for the veal. Though apparently the portions are very small.

[smittims]

While I agree that the request for us all to make a collective and simultaneous oath in front of our TV sets is ludicrous, ridiculous and thoroughly deserving the derision I'm sure will be heaped on it, it did occur to me that those who propose it (and I don't think the King himself was one, though the proposal will be worded so as to suggest that it's his idea) had in mind the mass hysteria that broke out after Diana's death and which I think was largely media-generated.

Byt that was nearly thirty years ago. Since then we've had 9/11, the 2008 banking crisis, Brexit, Trump and Johnson , and I think more people are too realistic and hard-headed. I suppose the suggestion was made by someone who just doesn't live in the real world as experienced by most people from day to day.

[teamsaint]

While I agree that the request for us all to make a collective and simultaneous oath in front of our TV sets is ludicrous, ridiculous and thoroughly deserving the derision I'm sure will be heaped on it, it did occur to me that those who propose it (and I don't think the King himself was one, though the proposal will be worded so as to suggest that it's his idea) had in mind the mass hysteria that broke out after Diana's death and which I think was largely media-generated.

Byt that was nearly thirty years ago. Since then we've had 9/11, the 2008 banking crisis, Brexit, Trump and Johnson , and I think more people are too realistic and hard-headed. I suppose the suggestion was made by someone who just doesn't live in the real world as experienced by most people from day to day.

And covid, which really turned the world upside down, in a number of truly disastrous and far reaching ways. Whether people are more realistic and hard headed as a result ……time to put in a call to Solomon on that one, I think.