Axing of BBC Singers and related cuts

[Pulcinella]

Times article here:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-singers-choir-saved-proms-2023-rtxp0n9rx?shareToken=41dd05cc5f65c2b5af91b2a76ffdb683

There's a comment by Richard Morrison that follows, but unfortunately it can't be shared.

But the third leader can be shared:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-bbc-singers-tuning-in-ljwm3508m?shareToken=17aa0b55e2d93abcd3ce897586e11fc1

[Ein Heldenleben]

Times article here:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-singers-choir-saved-proms-2023-rtxp0n9rx?shareToken=41dd05cc5f65c2b5af91b2a76ffdb683

There's a comment by Richard Morrison that follows, but unfortunately it can't be shared.

But the third leader can be shared:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...ce897586e11fc1

So the future for the BBC Singers is third party funding including possible commercial sponsorship. If only there was an internationally known global brand with the word Singer in it …….


I don’t see how replacing 20 per cent of orchestral staff musicians with freelance van possibly save 20 percent of the orchestra budget unless it’s also coupled with a reduction in sessions and performances. Freelance musicians might be cheaper but they are not free.

[ardcarp]

I don’t see how replacing 20 per cent of orchestral staff musicians with freelance van possibly save 20 percent of the orchestra budget unless it’s also coupled with a reduction in sessions and performances. Freelance musicians might be cheaper but they are not free.

May I start off by saying that the cutting down of orchestral-player numbers is Philistine, disgraceful and ought to be denounced by all music-lovers. However, the BBC execs have probably been told that much orchestral repertoire (Baroque, Classical and early Romantic) doesn't need a 'full' orchestra, so presumably they will retain their strings, woodwind, horns and timps, but hire in Trumpets, Trombones, Tubas, Harps and exotic percussion when needed. Looks good on paper, but will lead to diminution of repertoire. Hayydn may have been Father of the Symphony....but do we want him all day, every day?

[smittims]

Oh dear. That reminds me of when they tried to sell off the BBC's library of scores and parts,, and when it was opposed ,they said 'we thought musicians played from memory'.

I think this is in Carpenter's 'The Envy of the World' .

[Andrew Slater]

May I start off by saying that the cutting down of orchestral-player numbers is Philistine, disgraceful and ought to be denounced by all music-lovers. However, the BBC execs have probably been told that much orchestral repertoire (Baroque, Classical and early Romantic) doesn't need a 'full' orchestra, so presumably they will retain their strings, woodwind, horns and timps, but hire in Trumpets, Trombones, Tubas, Harps and exotic percussion when needed. Looks good on paper, but will lead to diminution of repertoire. Hayydn may have been Father of the Symphony....but do we want him all day, every day?

I think it will be more savage than you envisage. The original press release indicated that the orchestras would be playing in a wider range of venues, presumably some of which will be quite small:

Creating agile ensembles that can work flexibly and creatively, working with more musicians and broadcasting from more venues – up to 50 – in different parts of the country...

...we are creating agile ensembles that can work creatively, bringing in more musicians when needed and broadcasting from more venues in different parts of the country. This flexibility will enable our orchestras to perform the full range of repertoire, from intimate smaller scale works to the largest full-scale symphonic and choral pieces.

So the plan (such as exists) probably envisages chamber concerts using numbers of musicians dictated by the size of the smaller venues which they haven't previously visited, with occasional symphony orchestra concerts in the larger venues, with numbers made up by freelancers. This suggests that most of the redundancies will be among the strings, with the wind, brass and percussion sections probably retaining only their principals.

In this scenario, allowing for the smaller concerts, in order to make cost reductions of 20% I would imagine that the large-scale concerts would be cut by 30 to 40%.

I wonder how far these BBC ensembles might encroach on the territory of the many chamber ensembles and orchestras around the country?

[eighthobstruction]

.....yes Andrew .....makes one scratch ones head....and sparks fly....

[Serial_Apologist]

I think it will be more savage than you envisage. The original press release indicated that the orchestras would be playing in a wider range of venues, presumably some of which will be quite small:





So the plan (such as exists) probably envisages chamber concerts using numbers of musicians dictated by the size of the smaller venues which they haven't previously visited, with occasional symphony orchestra concerts in the larger venues, with numbers made up by freelancers. This suggests that most of the redundancies will be among the strings, with the wind, brass and percussion sections probably retaining only their principals.

In this scenario, allowing for the smaller concerts, in order to make cost reductions of 20% I would imagine that the large-scale concerts would be cut by 30 to 40%.

I wonder how far these BBC ensembles might encroach on the territory of the many chamber ensembles and orchestras around the country?

So then, the idea of an orchestra having its own collective ethos nurtured over decades, offering a unique sense of belonging for its members and following, and recognised worldwide, is one assumes to be a thing of the past?

[antongould]

So then, the idea of an orchestra having its own collective ethos nurtured over decades, offering a unique sense of belonging for its members and following, and recognised worldwide, is one assumes to be a thing of the past?

It would seem that way S_A

[ardcarp]

Sadly, yes.

[Old Grumpy]

Mystery heckler expelled: https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...chestra-review

[french frank]

Mystery heckler expelled: https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...chestra-review

"Woodhead, after the audience interruption, had gone on to say that, since 2020, the OAE [...] has been based in a north London state school, the first residency of its kind. The school hall is its rehearsal space, the players engage with pupils and have teamed up with them on music, dance and video projects. This example, to which little serious attention has been paid, might help shape UK music in the future, if the BBC continues to annul a century of endeavour."

[Cockney Sparrow]

Mystery heckler expelled: https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...chestra-review

On a quick look, my first thought (after the drama reported on) was....hmm....so the offer was 22 voices in the Mass in B minor in the Festival Hall.

I must remember with the Choir of the OAE its 22 voices in that space - a consideration before I decide to trek down to the South Bank.....

(Just to be clear, I'm not up for 4, 6, or 8 voices - in total - in Bach choral works, either.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

"Woodhead, after the audience interruption, had gone on to say that, since 2020, the OAE [...] has been based in a north London state school, the first residency of its kind. The school hall is its rehearsal space, the players engage with pupils and have teamed up with them on music, dance and video projects. This example, to which little serious attention has been paid, might help shape UK music in the future, if the BBC continues to annul a century of endeavour."

It that is an accurate quote all I can say is what a ridiculous exaggeration. How does spending the BBC spending £60 million pounds year on classical music amount to an “annulment.”? It’s almost as if some in the classical music establishment want to see the BBC perish . Is it jealousy or just a wilful ignoring of the evidence? There’s an hysteria about this whole BBC Singers episode which is becoming borderline ludicrous. Everyone in the Arts sector is having to make cuts because we have had a succiession of governments who have little sympathy or understanding of the arts and there are zero votes in funding it. Just slagging each other off is precisely what the politicians want as it detracts from the wider funding issue.

[french frank]

If that is an accurate quote all I can say is what a ridiculous exaggeration. How does spending the BBC spending £60 million pounds year on classical music amount to an “annulment.”?

It's accurate to the extent that it's a copy-and-paste from the linked article, and therefore these are the words of the columnist, Fiona Maddocks. I'm not sure how the £60m is arrived at, unless you bundle Radio 3's speech & drama, jazz, world music, 'alternative musics' as classical music. Nor are the magazine type programmes exclusively classical music, even when marketed as 'classical'.

The BBC accounts were always hard to compare year-on-year because accounting methods were regularly altered but certainly Radio 3 used to be considerably better funded than Radio 1 and Radio 2; now it gets less than any of the five network stations. The £25m that goes to the Performing Groups includes the Concert Orchestra which mainly is used on Radio 2, and the Singers are not exclusively focused on classical music either. Simply quoting "£60m" with no context or comparisons is not very helpful. If I had £60m plonked into my bank account I would think it a massive sum. In Jeff Bezos's account it wouldn't be noticed.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's accurate to the extent that it's a copy-and-paste from the linked article, and therefore these are the words of the columnist, Fiona Maddocks. I'm not sure how the £60m is arrived at, unless you bundle Radio 3's speech & drama, jazz, world music, 'alternative musics' as classical music. Nor are the magazine type programmes exclusively classical music, even when marketed as 'classical'.

The BBC accounts were always hard to compare year-on-year because accounting methods were regularly altered but certainly Radio 3 used to be considerably better funded than Radio 1 and Radio 2; now it gets less than any of the five network stations. The £25m that goes to the Performing Groups includes the Concert Orchestra which mainly is used on Radio 2, and the Singers are not exclusively focused on classical music either. Simply quoting "£60m" with no context or comparisons is not very helpful. If I had £60m plonked into my bank account I would think it a massive sum. In Jeff Bezos's account it wouldn't be noticed.

The vast majority of Radio 3’s output is classical music. The only other expensive element is posssibly the weekly drama, I would be surprised if the non classical elements add up to more than a couple of million a year. Most of the non classical music you mention is off disc and cheap.

I’ve been digging around a bit. BBC Symphony orchestra jobs are pretty well paid in comparison with other BBC production jobs - mid forties for a rank and file player . Though the principals’ salaries don’t look that generous . They also get hourly overtime - unheard of in anything other than operational jobs these days . The BBCSO rank and file salaries also compare well with the LSO for example.
A pertinent question might be for that money why isn’t the BBCSO a world class orchestra? Quite a few other BBC departments are world class e.g, the NHU,most factual programmes esp science and arts docs , some factual entertainment and News. It strikes me that the licence fee payer is paying a lot of money for orchestras that should be better than they are . Why is that ?