Axing of BBC Singers and related cuts

[Bryn]

A total musician boycott of said nights would involve only the BBCSO as well as the BBCSC and any other (non-professional) choirs that might be involved. I can't see that it would have much real effect apart from fuelling the BBC's persecution of said ensembles.

It's the public perception and BBC's loss of kudos which might have the significant effect, more so with the Last Night. For the BBC to be seen as being effectively responsible for cancelling the Last Night due to their blatant campaign against 'classical' music would not go down well with a large section of the more general public. A crowd-funding scheme to raise money to help compensate for the loss of fees would also raise the public profile.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A total musician boycott of said nights would involve only the BBCSO as well as the BBCSC and any other (non-professional) choirs that might be involved. I can't see that it would have much real effect apart from fuelling the BBC's persecution of said ensembles.

If all non-professional choirs were to join in the boycott, it would have a real effect. There’s an assumption that singers aren’t proper musicians and don’t need to be paid.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's the public perception and BBC's loss of kudos which might have the significant effect, more so with the Last Night. For the BBC to be seen as being effectively responsible for cancelling the Last Night due to their blatant campaign against 'classical' music would not go down well with a large section of the more general public. A crowd-funding scheme to raise money to help compensate for the loss of fees would also raise the public profile.

I don’t think there is a BBC campaign against classical music . The cuts if anything are less than cuts in other parts of BBC output esp , local news and radio . There was a strike about these this week. A Proms boycott by the BBCSO would be a strike and therefore need some sort of strike ballot. That might happen anyway of course . The real problem is not the BBCs attitude to classical music but the effective 18 per cent cut in funding through the licence fee freeze. BBC Four has effectively been axed as a channel and there will no doubt be more to come. With cuts like that you have to start giving up things you would prefer to retain.

At this point some will will no doubt mention Match Of The Day - but those 20 mins of highlights are all the BBC has left of the worlds greatest football competition. It has to provide something for everyone and that includes footy fans who can’t afford Sky / BT - that’s just as much public service as the BBC singers.

A proms boycott would just damage classical music in this country further. There was something of a Proms audience boycott this year - so many reviewers and indeed forumites posted about half full concerts there . That mirrors my experience in the South West where audiences for opera and the BSO are about a third less than pre lockdown. Maybe people have got out of the habit , maybe it’s the cost of a night out and the lure of Netflix. There is a crisis in classical music live audience programming in this country but I don’t think it is of the BBC’s making .

A boycott would make the classical music elite feel happier with themselves but what precisely did they do to support the BBC Singers ? Employ them? Book them ? Commission pieces ? Some did but some , I think, rather looked down their nose at them.

[DracoM]

At the risk of setting off a swarm of scorpions, can I raise one or two issues:

1. When BBCS first started, they had a legit and desperately needed space, cause and genuine excellence. There were almost NO competitors.
2. Along came a total sea-change in how choral music was researched / delivered / entrenched e.g. David Munrow etc etc etc
3. The recorded music biz has now many more and very diverse markets.
4. Since then the number of highly trained, highly respected, highly specialised, highly professional and much sought after ensembles has risen.
5. So - and is THIS the real Q - is there actually any longer the need etc for the BBCS at all? Is the BBC simply bowing to the musically more diverse tastes, purchase power in the BBC audience?

[Ein Heldenleben]

At the risk of setting off a swarm of scorpions, can I raise one or two issues:

1. When BBCS first started, they had a legit and desperately needed space, cause and genuine excellence. There were almost NO competitors.
2. Along came a total sea-change in how choral music was researched / delivered / entrenched e.g. David Munrow etc etc etc
3. The recorded music biz has now many more and very diverse markets.
4. Since then a multiplying number of highly trained, highly respected, highly professional and much sought after ensembles have arisen in specialist fields.
5. So - and is THIS the real Q - is there actually any longer the need etc for the BBCS at all? Is the BBC simply bowing to the musically more diverse tastes, purchase power in the BBC audience?

Thing is you could say exactly the same thing about the BBC ‘s entire classical music output. In the Morrison piece the unnamed “famous” singer says “Who wants Ligeti? ” .
If you do want Ligeti rather than the millionth Bach B minor mass then the BBC Singers will be one of the few groups able to sing it and the BBC the only national broadcaster likely to transmit it. That is what they are there for.

PS Ligeti is a lot more popular than the this “famous” singer admits . Witness 2001 Space Oydessy - just about everyone I knew had that album at school…when people do get a chance to hear modern music it’s amazing how much they like it . It’s just that we are overwhelmed by pop.

[mopsus]

The BBC Singers' remit has also changed significantly over the decades. Until the 1990s one thing they did was being the resident choir for singing the Daily Service each weekday morning. Then they were relieved of that duty and BBC religion moved to be based in Manchester, which meant that if you sang in Manchester choirs (as I did at the time) you were likely to suddenly start getting invitations to sing in the Daily Service.

I think they also do more pre-20th century music than they used to - perhaps since the Cleobury era around the turn of the millennium.

The downturn in audiences is I'm told a widespread phenomenon, so much so that large-scale choral/orchestral concerts are becoming a rarity because they make such a loss.

[french frank]

Is the BBC simply bowing to the musically more diverse tastes, purchase power in the BBC audience?

Like Radio 3, you mean?

[Ein Heldenleben]

The BBC Singers' remit has also changed significantly over the decades. Until the 1990s one thing they did was being the resident choir for singing the Daily Service each weekday morning. Then they were relieved of that duty and BBC religion moved to be based in Manchester, which meant that if you sang in Manchester choirs (as I did at the time) you were likely to suddenly start getting invitations to sing in the Daily Service.

I think they also do more pre-20th century music than they used to - perhaps since the Cleobury era around the turn of the millennium.

The downturn in audiences is I'm told a widespread phenomenon, so much so that large-scale choral/orchestral concerts are becoming a rarity because they make such a loss.

That was one of the very first things I ever worked on - it used to come from All Souls the Church next to BH . An excellent start to the day.
I wonder why the tide has turned specifically against big choral / orchestral concerts. Locally they seem to do quite well because 100 plus chorus partners tend to get “dragged” along.

[mopsus]

That was one of the very first things I ever worked on - it used to come from All Souls the Church next to BH . An excellent start to the day.
I wonder why the tide has turned specifically against big choral / orchestral concerts. Locally they seem to do quite well because 100 plus chorus partners tend to get “dragged” along.

I can only really speak for what I've seen myself (including balance sheets) and what local conductors say. But audience numbers have definitely shrunk (as in some cases have choir numbers, meaning fewer partners to come along) and increasingly concerts that might have once have featured a full orchestra are accompanied instead by small ensembles or organ, and repertoire is more restricted. A topic for another thread maybe.

Returning to the BBC Singers, I expect everyone here who's going to sign the petition has done so now, but note that it closes at 5 pm today. [No! The deadline has been removed - see #189 below. But still keep urging interested people to sign] Over 125,000 have signed.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I can only really speak for what I've seen myself (including balance sheets) and what local conductors say. But audience numbers have definitely shrunk (as in some cases have choir numbers, meaning fewer partners to come along) and increasingly concerts that might have once have featured a full orchestra are accompanied instead by small ensembles or organ, and repertoire is more restricted. A topic for another thread maybe.p

Returning to the BBC Singers, I expect everyone here who's going to sign the petition has done so now, but note that it closes at 5 pm today. Over 125,000 have signed.

My knowledge is obviously just a tiny snapshot of the National picture. I would say that most small scale amateur choral groups have recovered reasonably well post lockdown. The local Devon classical scene is dominated by choral groups ranging from chamber to (near) symphony chorus. Future highlights include things like the Dartington Community Choir with Roddy Williams at Dartington.
Where I there think there has been a real falling off is in the number of high quality (international standard ) chamber music - there are far fewer of these in Dartington and Plymouth ; Opera (GTO no longer tour); and ,with the exception of the BSO, orchestral music. Choral socs seem to be the only thing really hanging in there. There are signs of life in Newton Abbot with a recent piano fest there even being featured in In Tune. I hear good things about Sidmouth…

Signed the petition.

[Andrew Slater]

Returning to the BBC Singers, I expect everyone here who's going to sign the petition has done so now, but note that it closes at 5 pm today. Over 125,000 have signed.

I think the deadline has been removed now - see "Updates" on the main petition page.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

If all non-professional choirs were to join in the boycott, it would have a real effect. There’s an assumption that singers aren’t proper musicians and don’t need to be paid.

There are few if any non-professional choirs who appear at the Proms in their own right; my own current is due to appear at its synonymous orchestra's Prom and will, I believe, take a financial hit if the orchestra boycotts. A fairly minor practicality given the bigger picture, but still, one that might still apply to others.

As for singers aren't proper musicians, that's an assumption that the BBC has never made any undue effort to quash; it should be ashamed at the sheer lack of TV exposure over time for the Singers and both Choruses. During my time at the BBCSC, on numerous occasions the suggestion was made that there could be better publicity, but it always felt as if it was just too much trouble for them. So often it felt like "other musical groups are available" was the mantra.

[Pulcinella]

It is often a surprise to people that in general chorus members pay to belong to their societies but the orchestral musicians that are used to accompany them in their concerts (quite rightly) get paid for their efforts.

[french frank]

I think the deadline has been removed now - see "Updates" on the main petition page.

The signatories seem to be flowing in roughly every minute.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There are few if any non-professional choirs who appear at the Proms in their own right; my own current is due to appear at its synonymous orchestra's Prom and will, I believe, take a financial hit if the orchestra boycotts. A fairly minor practicality given the bigger picture, but still, one that might still apply to others.

As for singers aren't proper musicians, that's an assumption that the BBC has never made any undue effort to quash; it should be ashamed at the sheer lack of TV exposure over time for the Singers and both Choruses. During my time at the BBCSC, on numerous occasions the suggestion was made that there could be better publicity, but it always felt as if it was just too much trouble for them. So often it felt like "other musical groups are available" was the mantra.

Singing is the biggest mass active participation art form in the UK and the BBC should do more to reflect and support that. The success of Gareth Malone’s many choir series didn’t surprise me at all. It’s amazing how many amateur singers watched it because, whilst not pretending to be Harry Cristophers, he knows what he’s talking about.