Axing of BBC Singers and related cuts

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  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30509

    Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
    Back on thread I looked at the BBC Singers and BBCSO’s future four concerts. There are are plenty of unsold tickets . The BBCSO at the Barbican appear to have closed the balcony there so I reckon they are running at 40 to 50 per cent sales- and their tickets are 20 per cent cheaper than the LSO’s . Although it’s not their job to sell out live performances it strikes me that all this angst over cuts is not being borne out by support by the public or indeed the letter -writing cultural grandees in terms of actually going to see them. No doubt this is being noted by the management.
    But how much has to do with the programme? Proms concerts also sell out - and are also half full. I don't know how much is due to marketing. Politicians have also taken the view that 'popular culture' is as important as 'high culture'. It may be unclear what exactly constitutes 'high culture' (or 'classical music' for that matter). But I'm pretty sure 'mass audiences' know what popular culture is: it's familiar, it's all around, it's hard to avoid. It's shared by friends, it's welcoming, it has everything going for it. But a classical concert is an unknown prison. You know you can't just have a short listen and leave (you can engage as much or as little as you like with an art exhibition: and people know what a picture is and they like some of them). 'Support by the public' is only relevant to the BBC when all they do as a result is hive off 99% of their classical output and keep it out of the places where people could familiarise themselves with the culture in an unthreatening atmosphere.

    This is why I repeat (hyperbole or not) that the BBC have certainly contributed to killing off audiences and in not being bold enough in nurturing new audiences. Piano Flow on Radio 3 isn't the way to do it.
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6962

      Originally posted by french frank View Post
      But how much has to do with the programme? Proms concerts also sell out - and are also half full. I don't know how much is due to marketing. Politicians have also taken the view that 'popular culture' is as important as 'high culture'. It may be unclear what exactly constitutes 'high culture' (or 'classical music' for that matter). But I'm pretty sure 'mass audiences' know what popular culture is: it's familiar, it's all around, it's hard to avoid. It's shared by friends, it's welcoming, it has everything going for it. But a classical concert is an unknown prison. You know you can't just have a short listen and leave (you can engage as much or as little as you like with an art exhibition: and people know what a picture is and they like some of them). 'Support by the public' is only relevant to the BBC when all they do as a result is hive off 99% of their classical output and keep it out of the places where people could familiarise themselves with the culture in an unthreatening atmosphere.

      This is why I repeat (hyperbole or not) that the BBC have certainly contributed to killing off audiences and in not being bold enough in nurturing new audiences. Piano Flow on Radio 3 isn't the way to do it.
      Could be the programme but this evening with Ian McEwan strikes as pretty popular fare with a big name best selling author

      Grażyna Bacewicz
      overture
      Arvo Pärt
      Cantus in memoriam Benjamin Britten
      Edvard Grieg
      Holberg Suite
      Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky
      The Nutcracker, Op 71 (Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy)
      Thelonious Monk
      Round Midnight
      Mieczysław Weinberg
      Aria
      Philip Glass
      Interlude to Act 1 Sc2 from The Voyage
      Ludwig van Beethoven
      Symphony No 1 in C major
      fourth movement

      The ticket sales are worse than I thought - as well as a closed balcony the pattern of sales strongly suggests the last 4 (side) to 8 (centre) in the circle aren’t on sale either.

      The next concert is hardly outré fare either

      Grażyna Bacewicz
      Concerto pour Grande Orchestre Symphonique
      Antonín Dvořák
      Violin Concerto in A minor
      Béla Bartók
      Concerto for Orchestra


      And it’s not selling well either. I think live classical music in London at least has a big problem at the moment and I think blaming the BBC or the Government for it is just lazy thinking.

      Comment

      • Simon B
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 782

        Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
        Could be the programme but this evening with Ian McEwan strikes as pretty popular fare with a big name best selling author

        And it’s not selling well either. I think live classical music in London at least has a big problem at the moment and I think blaming the BBC or the Government for it is just lazy thinking.
        While not really disagreeing with the general essence of this, anecdotally the picture on the ground is more confusing and erratic.

        The defining quality of BBCSO concerts at the Barbican over the long term (long before the pandemic) is quite often modest attendances. Exceptions to this would typically be those with less adventurous programming. Has much effort ever been made to market them? It's never been clear to me. On the whole the impression has always been that the primary purpose of Barbican concerts is recording for broadcast and a paying audience is an incidental side-effect. Pre-pandemic I've been to plenty where the hall was far from full and it was clear that many of those around me were on BBC comps.

        Meanwhile, just now in London, the entire runs of Turandot at Covent Garden and Akhnaten at ENO sold out before the first night. Admittedly that's a bit of an apples with pears comparison. While the LSO is still not regularly filling the Barbican in the way it did pre-pandemic my anecdotal experience is of a marked uptick over just the last few months. Full or very busy houses for Rattle, Pappano, Hannigan recently... Could just be a fluke as that's personal observation rather than data.

        If there's a theme it's that it's all more erratic and unpredictable now. The right thing in the right place will do well, but predicting what that is is harder.
        Last edited by Simon B; 22-03-23, 12:47.

        Comment

        • mikealdren
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 1205

          Originally posted by Vox Humana View Post
          Well, yes. So might ours, if Thatcher had had the foresight to invest North Sea oil profits for the benefit of the country in the way Norway did, instead of squandering it on give-aways.
          Why Thatcher in particular? North Sea oil and gas flow really got going in the 70s when we had a labour government and financial chaos. Surely that was the time that a Norwegian solution might have been sensible?

          Comment

          • Vox Humana
            Full Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 1253

            Originally posted by mikealdren View Post
            Why Thatcher in particular? North Sea oil and gas flow really got going in the 70s when we had a labour government and financial chaos. Surely that was the time that a Norwegian solution might have been sensible?
            Not so. North Sea oil revenues were initially very modest. The real revenue stream did not begin until 1979, the year Thatcher became PM.
            North Sea oil and gas revenues have proved to be a source of significant and one-sided forecast errors in recent years, as receipts have fallen by around 75 per cent between 2011-12 and our current estimate of receipts in 2014-15. As shown in Chart A, dramatic rises and falls in oil and gas receipts are...

            Comment

            • Ein Heldenleben
              Full Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 6962

              Originally posted by Simon B View Post
              While not really disagreeing with the general essence of this, anecdotally the picture on the ground is more confusing and erratic.

              The defining quality of BBCSO concerts at the Barbican over the long term (long before the pandemic) is quite often modest attendances. Exceptions to this would typically be those with less adventurous programming. Has much effort ever been made to market them? It's never been clear to me. On the whole the impression has always been that the primary purpose of Barbican concerts is recording for broadcast and a paying audience is an incidental side-effect. Pre-pandemic I've been to plenty where the hall was far from full and it was clear that many of those around me were on BBC comps.

              Meanwhile, just now in London, the entire runs of Turandot at Covent Garden and Akhnaten at ENO sold out before the first night. Admittedly that's a bit of an apples with pears comparison. While the LSO is still not regularly filling the Barbican in the way it did pre-pandemic my anecdotal experience is of a marked uptick over just the last few months. Full or very busy houses for Rattle, Pappano, Hannigan recently... Could just be a fluke as that's personal observation rather than data.

              If there's a theme it's that it's all more erratic and unpredictable now. The right thing in the right place will do well, but predicting what that is is harder.
              All good points. It’s very difficult to get a complete over view . I’ve seen a few reviews referring to smallish London audiences equally I’d seen that both Turandot and Ahknaten had sold out. I suspect a lot of the audience for the latter will be “light” classical consumers in the sense that that they don’t go to much opera but have heard of Glass and Ancient Eygpt is curiously “sexy” box office. Equally I couldn’t believe the empty seats at last years superbly sung but direly produced Aida.(which is a much better opera no?)
              You are right that the main purpose of the BBCSO is recording for broadcast. It is however important for morale and for “atmosphere” to have an audience .I wonder if the BBC would be better creating a small (500) audience space in the new Stratford studios and more or less give away tickets to local children and students and forget about the Barbican. It must be costing them money to hire the Barbican . I would also cut back on the money pit that the Proms has become (if that 10 million / net 6 million pound cost is accurate ) . It’s bloated and has too many non classical elements, I would also give up foreign orchestral touring. I can’t believe it makes a profit and it’s not justifiable in carbon terms.
              There you go a million pounds saved and no singers sacked.

              Comment

              • Master Jacques
                Full Member
                • Feb 2012
                • 1953

                Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                All good points. It’s very difficult to get a complete over view . I’ve seen a few reviews referring to smallish London audiences equally I’d seen that both Turandot and Ahknaten had sold out. I suspect a lot of the audience for the latter will be “light” classical consumers in the sense that that they don’t go to much opera but have heard of Glass and Ancient Eygpt is curiously “sexy” box office. Equally I couldn’t believe the empty seats at last years superbly sung but direly produced Aida.(which is a much better opera no?)
                Rising briefly to your bait, in a customarily sensible and wise post ... not better, no - just very different. Akhnaten fills houses, because it is one of a tiny handful of "modern" operas (despite being written forty years ago) which communicates something new, fresh and immediate to a rather tired form. I love both operas dearly, and would not want to be without either of them. But Akhnaten has a special place in my heart, as it belongs to "our time" and is completely compelling music theatre.

                Comment

                • Ein Heldenleben
                  Full Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 6962

                  Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
                  Rising briefly to your bait, in a customarily sensible and wise post ... not better, no - just very different. Akhnaten fills houses, because it is one of a tiny handful of "modern" operas (despite being written forty years ago) which communicates something new, fresh and immediate to a rather tired form. I love both operas dearly, and would not want to be without either of them. But Akhnaten has a special place in my heart, as it belongs to "our time" and is completely compelling music theatre.
                  Thanks for your polite reply . Apologies in advance . I sort of enjoyed it but I honestly think Glass amongst the worlds most overrated musicians. I found it distinctly uncompelling , static and in places actively tedious but nevertheless interesting. I much preferred amongst recent operas Brett Dean’s Hamlet. I really think that worked (good book helped).
                  Aida is of course a masterpiece.

                  Comment

                  • smittims
                    Full Member
                    • Aug 2022
                    • 4388

                    Sobering news in your #302, Heldenlaben. Is it just live classical music, or does the West End theatre share this downturn?

                    I was wondering if it went back to the Government restrictions (three years old this Friday) , so that when the thetares and concert halls reopened many had lost the habit of coming up to town.

                    Comment

                    • Ein Heldenleben
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 6962

                      Originally posted by smittims View Post
                      Sobering news in your #302, Heldenlaben. Is it just live classical music, or does the West End theatre share this downturn?

                      I was wondering if it went back to the Government restrictions (three years old this Friday) , so that when the thetares and concert halls reopened many had lost the habit of coming up to town.
                      As Simon B has pointed out ( and he goes to more live London concerts) the relative lack of sales to BBC SO concerts may have been the case pre lockdown. I haven’t been to a London concert since 2019 but just picking up from reviews and talking to people in the classical world I get the impression that sales are still down on the pre lockdown world generally .I think people just got out of the habit.There’s also the cost of living crisis, energy bills, rail strikes etc to contend with coupled with an elderly audience that has the wits frightened out of them by all the Covid messaging.
                      It’s not just music. All the local restaurants now close on Mondays and Tuesdays and I live in a tourist area. As for the west end I was suprisedhow easily I got a ticket for Guys And Dolls at the Bridge the morning after it’s uniform five star reviews - the fact that it cost £95 might explain things.

                      Comment

                      • french frank
                        Administrator/Moderator
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 30509

                        Originally posted by smittims View Post
                        Sobering news in your #302, Heldenlaben. Is it just live classical music, or does the West End theatre share this downturn?
                        Interesting question. I'd often wondered whether 'legitimate theatre' (i.e. plays written for the stage) had suffered a similar fate to classical concerts, provoking the same sort of 'youth indifference'. The big 2,000 seater in Bristol that has the WNO operas has complete seasons with virtually no 'theatre' at all, in that sense of stage plays. They are popular 'shows' of various sorts, including stand-up comedy. There's some ballet/dance and I'm surprised to see The Mousetrap here,along with the couple of visits by the WNO.

                        And how much 'theatre' does BBC television broadcast?
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment

                        • teamsaint
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 25231

                          Audience numbers at the Anvil in Basingstoke must be well down on pre pandemic levels. Half empty hall for Beethoven Pastoral last year, worse for Elgar 2 recently.
                          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                          I am not a number, I am a free man.

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                          • Ein Heldenleben
                            Full Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 6962

                            Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                            Audience numbers at the Anvil in Basingstoke must be well down on pre pandemic levels. Half empty hall for Beethoven Pastoral last year, worse for Elgar 2 recently.
                            Have to say it was a similar experience in Exeter with the BSO this winter season. I went to all their concerts . I reckon it was an average 50 per cent full. A terrific shame as the concerts were high quality. On a positive note I really enjoyed the Elgar 2.

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                            • mikealdren
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 1205

                              Originally posted by Vox Humana View Post
                              Not so. North Sea oil revenues were initially very modest. The real revenue stream did not begin until 1979, the year Thatcher became PM.
                              https://obr.uk/box/the-rise-and-fall...-gas-revenues/
                              Rather off topic but by 1979 all the contracts and binding agreements were in place. The time to sort out the financial arrangements is before the revenues flow not after. by that time the oil companies have invested billions.

                              Comment

                              • Ein Heldenleben
                                Full Member
                                • Apr 2014
                                • 6962

                                Originally posted by mikealdren View Post
                                Rather off topic but by 1979 all the contracts and binding agreements were in place. The time to sort out the financial arrangements is before the revenues flow not after. by that time the oil companies have invested billions.
                                It had little to do with Thatcher or Callaghan . It was the Treasury who decided to write it off against the national debt rather than invest for the future. We also had for decades the benefit of cheap energy - a huge cost advantage for our industry. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and our energy costs are amongst the highest in the world. All totally predictable.

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