Axing of BBC Singers and related cuts

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks very much for the link Anton. Totally agree with his views of the bosses' treatment of the BBC and classical music in general.

It would take a month of Sundays to disentangle all the inconsistencies in the remainder of what Mr Moore has to say there - but not here!

[ardcarp]

Presumably all the BBC salaried musicians are in the MU (Musicians' Union). So why not add to the doctors, nurses, railway staff, passport suppliers, etc, etc and organise a massive strike at very short notice just before the Proms? It'd be tragic, I know, but the UK is pretty tragic at the moment anyway. I've never felt so low about being a citizen thereof.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Ahem... sorry for any confusion, DracoM, by my lapsing into jargon. I had thought that the term had entered colloquial English, at least as far as this forum went.

I mean that time of day devoted to 'dumbing-down', i.e. deliberately reducing the intellectual demand made of the listener, not something I think Radio 3 should be doing at any time.

I was interested to see, and am grateful for, oddeoneout's explanation of the purported apppearance of these programmes. I had assumed they were there because they were perceived by R3 management, or at least expected to fulfil the Government's expectation, that they appealed more to what is known as 'Black , Asian and other Ethnic Minority' (BAME) listeners than do core-classical programmes. If (and I stress if as I may be mistaken) that's so, then I think that's rather patronising on their part. At any rate I sense an Elephant in the room here .

I think you might be mistaken. The Piano flow , Downtime podcast / late night broadcasts were a response to the success of things like Spotify’s success in streaming relaxing piano mood music ( or so I’ve read ). The idea is also that it might draw people into more overtly “classical” piano music.
Although there are plenty of diversity targets in terms of employment and on air representation I’ve never come across ethnic / gender / or very specific socio economic group audience targets.
One thing I do remember reading is that , in TV a at least , popular shows tend to be uniformly popular across ethnic groups. The differences are really in male / female and particularly in age and socio-economic groupings. It is not unusual for a TV controller (when they existed ) to launch a series with the idea of drawing in more C2DE’s for example . Equally the holy grail for some commercial channels are young AB1’s. What really interests them is how much money they have to spend.
Radio esp music and language based radio may well be more ethnically targeted but I would seriously doubt that is a major factor in Radio 3 which if I remember aright skews heavily AB male over 60…(like golf coverage)

[Master Jacques]

Does that mean not using the word 'genre' or not referring eg to 'verismo'

It will mean avoiding grouping stage works or discussing them according to rigid "genre" groupings, where possible. Every good art work carves out its own territory, often adapting pre-existent patterns, but composers and librettists never make them to conform with particular alleged "genres". Referring to verismo is perfectly fine, as the term describes a bundle of techniques which can be described, selected and utilised. But once again, I should say that there is no such "genre" as verismo, binding such hugely diverse works as Cavalleria Rusticana, L'amore dei tre re and Andrea Chenier together - but rather a group of theatrical, literary and musical techniques and structures. Critics invent genres, composers don't.

[pastoralguy]

I've never felt to low about being a citizen thereof.

Quite agree, ardcarp. I do not feel this government has its citizens best interests at heart.

[Frances_iom]

Quite agree, ardcarp. I do not feel this government has its citizens best interests at heart.

No government in the last 150 years had its citizens best interests even remotely at heart - I might make an honourable exception for the immediate post war labour government but certainly since 1951 it has been class interests to the front - not for nothing is Britain the most unequal society in Europe - the only principle of the current government is that described as - to those that have shall be given.

[ardcarp]

I do not feel this government has its citizens best interests at heart.

I know I keep banging on about Norway...it's because I have a whole load of family living there as Norwegian citizens. The government is usually a sort of social democratic coalition, and its intent IS to govern for the people. That can have its drawbacks too....including massive amounts of red-tape and Health and Safety stuff (from which ski-ing and mind-boggling outdoor feats seem to be exempt) so I guess there is a happy medium somewhere. They are certainly nearer the Happy Medium than we are. The country has a small population, yet there are two world class orchestras (Bergen and Oslo) and a fabulous choir called The Norwegian Solists, ill-named because they are not 'soloists' at all but a wonderfully blended chamber choir. Then there's the Silver Boys' Choir......but need I go on?

[Old Grumpy]

I know I keep banging on about Norway...it's because I have a whole load of family living there as Norwegian citizens. The government is usually a sort of social democratic coalition, and its intent IS to govern for the people. That can have its drawbacks too....including massive amounts of red-tape and Health and Safety stuff (from which ski-ing and mind-boggling outdoor feats seem to be exempt) so I guess there is a happy medium somewhere. They are certainly nearer the Happy Medium than we are. The country has a small population, yet there are two world class orchestras (Bergen and Oslo) and a fabulous choir called The Norwegian Solists, ill-named because they are not 'soloists' at all but a wonderfully blended chamber choir. Then there's the Silver Boys' Choir......but need I go on?

These guys are good too: https://www.barokksolistene.com/barokksolistene-2/

[jayne lee wilson]

That's precisely what's happened. Globalisation of polyglot hybrids - whether in music or the other arts - has weakened the quality, resulting in the end of high culture as a concept. The process has been steered by the power marketeers, who always found high art a threat to the consumer mentality off which they feed.

I would strongly dispute this, especially about cinema.
(And What is "High Culture" anyway? Who gets to decide?
An example of a "polyglot hybrid" would be useful too...

Surely recent films such as - Promising Young Woman, Power of the Dog, Another Round, The Quiet Girl, The Wonder, Banshees of Inisherin, Aftersun and several others including the wonderful Living I just watched, are strong evidence for the opposite: at least a golden few years for films which might once have been limited to the Arthouse. But the Blockbusters like Elvis have been made with unusual subtlety and sophistication too. ("Polyglot"? So what? Call me by Your Name and Inglorious Basterds [sic] are two masterpieces of multilingual cinema). Its been a wonderful time for the Home Box Office....

My Culture is High Culture to Me! (Just so long as it takes me higher...)

I could make similar arguments for music and literature, modern fiction in particular (Liz McCracken, Liz Strout, Sebastian Barry...) - and poetry. Have you seen Sharold Old's recent work?
Joelle Taylor's C+nto and Othered Poems is scarcely light reading is it?

And plenty of cross-fertilising genre-and gender-fluidity running through many of them....

[teamsaint]

I know I keep banging on about Norway...it's because I have a whole load of family living there as Norwegian citizens. The government is usually a sort of social democratic coalition, and its intent IS to govern for the people. That can have its drawbacks too....including massive amounts of red-tape and Health and Safety stuff (from which ski-ing and mind-boggling outdoor feats seem to be exempt) so I guess there is a happy medium somewhere. They are certainly nearer the Happy Medium than we are. The country has a small population, yet there are two world class orchestras (Bergen and Oslo) and a fabulous choir called The Norwegian Solists, ill-named because they are not 'soloists' at all but a wonderfully blended chamber choir. Then there's the Silver Boys' Choir......but need I go on?

I’m sure Norway is a great place. Some of their govt spending of course derives from oil and gas , the income from which has trebled in the past year. And not everybody would approve of that.
Anyway, the western world is in a sorry mess, and the UK is far from the only place with a lousy govt and invisible opposition.

[Vox Humana]

I’m sure Norway is a great place. Some of their govt spending of course derives from oil and gas , the income from which has trebled in the past year.

Well, yes. So might ours, if Thatcher had had the foresight to invest North Sea oil profits for the benefit of the country in the way Norway did, instead of squandering it on give-aways.

[Serial_Apologist]

Quite agree, ardcarp. I do not feel this government has its citizens best interests at heart.

Understatement of the year!

[Pulcinella]

Another mention in The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/200-choirs-tell-tim-davie-to-save-the-bbc-singers-3pd55lnc6?shareToken=3285b269a1e1e81b83623570318b52c4

[french frank]

Another mention in The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2...623570318b52c4

Pile on the pressure (as much for the orchestras decision as the Singers).

Not quite sure about the £10m to stage the Proms. Is that the gross sum paid out or is it after recouping ticket sales? I suspect the info came from this Radio Times piece of 2017 which stated the 'hard-to-get' figures as £10m to stage the Proms and £5m return on ticket sales, leaving a deficit (for R3 to pay) of £5m. The BBC didn't respond to my suggestion that they should be called the BBC Radio 3 Proms .

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's precisely what's happened. Globalisation of polyglot hybrids - whether in music or the other arts - has weakened the quality, resulting in the end of high culture as a concept. The process has been steered by the power marketeers, who always found high art a threat to the consumer mentality off which they feed.

I agree about the power of marketing - something relatively new in our culture . But the whole notion of “high culture” is partly what’s got us into this mess. If you were to describe Verdi as high culture to an Italian or Shakespeare as high culture to an Elizabethan they wouldn’t know what you are talking about. Even today relatively works like Great Expectations are both amongst the greatest of all European novels and , in adaption, popular TV adaptations.
To try and imply that they reason people don’t go to classical concerts is because of some “power marketeers”: fear and loathing of high culture just isn’t backed up by any evidence . Maybe the reason they don’t go is because of all sorts of other factors. It’s only classical concerts that seem to have this problem - modern art , contemporary dance and modern drama seem to be thriving in terms of attracting an audience.
Two bits of evidence : the BRBs Swan Lake sold out our local 2000 seat theatre last week for 6 performances. This week the Ballet Rambert are doing the same with Peaky Blinders. Both have been heavily marketed locally.
Went to the Hepworth Exhibition in St Ives last week plenty of people there out of seaso.

Back on thread I looked at the BBC Singers and BBCSO’s future four concerts. There are are plenty of unsold tickets . The BBCSO at the Barbican appear to have closed the balcony there so I reckon they are running at 40 to 50 per cent sales- and their tickets are 20 per cent cheaper than the LSO’s . Although it’s not their job to sell out live performances it strikes me that all this angst over cuts is not being borne out by support by the public or indeed the letter -writing cultural grandees in terms of actually going to see them. No doubt this is being noted by the management. At least I have the excuse of living 300 miles away - though I am making it to ENO next week.

Finally couldn’t help noticing that the BBCSO is touring the hotspot of cultural and economic deprivation that is Monaco* . Not exactly levelling up is it ? I look forward to their next performance in Rochdale.

* the tickets are cheaper than at the Barbican - price being an important factor in Monaco.. They’ve also sold way more tickets there. Now tax exiles - there’s an audience that appreciates high culture