Ukraine

[Nick Armstrong]

A very small point but was not Bruckner Hitler's favourite composer, rather than Wagner? Thank goodness Prigozhin's mercenaries were not named after AB.

I think the familiar cliché is that it was Wagner… I’m happy to say I have no idea what Adolf’s actual preferences were

[french frank]

I think the familiar cliché is that it was Wagner… I’m happy to say I have no idea what Adolf’s actual preferences were

Yes, it's not really a question of which (if either) was Adolf Hitler's favourite. It's more who Utkin (or Prigozhin) thought was his favourite. To be pedantic.

[richardfinegold]

How has it not? A visibly shaken Putin appeared on TV on Saturday morning uttering all kinds of threats to Prigozhin and his armed mutineers. Hours later he meekly negotiates a deal, the mutineers having got halfway to Moscow virtually unopposed, lets Prigozhin leave the country and pardons the rest of his merry men. Moreover, Putin himself has apparently fled the capital to who knows where. There has been no word from him since.

Can you imagine Stalin or Hitler doing this? It is, though, not unlike Stalin's breakdown in 1941 following the German invasion and his disappearance from view. Even Hitler managed a radio broadcast after the bomb plot on July 20 1944 ('A very small group of ambitious, unscrupulous, and at the same time unreasonable, criminal-stupid officers has plotted a conspiracy to eliminate me') with ruthless results.

Putin has been severely damaged and looks weak in the eyes of the world and the Russian people.

Yet he managed to get Prighozin to stand down without having to really hammer him. Prighozin must have known he wouldn’t out duel Putin. Ultimately this shows that no one can successfully challange Putin. And as you stated earlier, I think Putin will ultimately off Prighozin and restore his reputation . Let’s make a wager on who will be in the Kremlin one year from now—Putin or someone else

[french frank]

Yet he managed to get Prighozin to stand down without having to really hammer him. Prighozin must have known he wouldn’t out duel Putin. Ultimately this shows that no one can successfully challange Putin.

That is the Kremlin line. Prigozhin says he wasn't intending to topple Putin anyway, and none of his rants were aimed at Putin either. What Putin suspected or feared (or how he'll react towards Prigozhin) we don't know, and Prigozhin may well fall out of a window.

Let’s make a wager on who will be in the Kremlin one year from now—Putin or someone else

That's a different issue. It wouldn't mean he couldn't have to face off other protests or rebellions.

[richardfinegold]

I think the familiar cliché is that it was Wagner… I’m happy to say I have no idea what Adolf’s actual preferences were

According to his one time sidekick Putzi haufnenstangl (sp?) the latter would play Wagner, Beethoven and Mozart for the future Fuhrer on the Piano and it was always Wagner that got Hitler up and marching around the room

[richardfinegold]

That is the Kremlin line. Prigozhin says he wasn't intending to topple Putin anyway, and none of his rants were aimed at Putin either. What Putin suspected or feared (or how he'll react towards Prigozhin) we don't know, and Prigozhin may well fall out of a window.



That's a different issue. It wouldn't mean he couldn't have to face off other protests or rebellions.

There was a report here from Anne Applebaum about how politically apathetic the average Russian have become under Putin. You said earlier that while the latest events may make Putin look weak in the eyes of the West, they may not register as more than a blip over there.
I recall many dire pronouncements, mainly coming from abroad, that American Democracy had died on January 6 2021. Things tend to look different to outsiders.
Instead of comparing the recent events to Stalin vs Trotsky, or Hitler vs the S.A., perhaps the most appropriate analogy would be to the revolt of Stenka Razin. It was a serious threat to the Russian State, yet the Romanovs survived and lasted another 300 years

[french frank]

perhaps the most appropriate analogy would be to the revolt of Stenka Razin. It was a serious threat to the Russian State, yet the Romanovs survived and lasted another 300 years

I doubt Putin will last for another 300 years, though.

[Serial_Apologist]

I doubt Putin will last for another 300 years, though.

[french frank]

This is just a point of view, but I find it persuasive (or do I just mean attractive? ):

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/27/ukraine-west-vladimir-putin-russia-kyiv-volodymyr-zelenskiy

[Petrushka]

Apparently, Russia’s security services have dropped any investigation into the weekend’s armed mutiny. This seems very odd indeed to me, especially as helicopters and planes were allegedly shot down resulting in the deaths of 13 Russian pilots. So after all of Putin's ranting about the traitors being brought to justice, that's it then?

[DracoM]

Dropped investigations?................and you really believe that?

[french frank]

Dropped investigations?................and you really believe that?

I'd believe it. Why would they need an official, transparent investigation? Any retribution doesn't have to be legal, does it?

[richardfinegold]

I have no doubt that if Wagner had really made a strong coup attempt, the regular Russian military would have triumphed. There is a difference between defending your own turf vs fighting an unpopular foreign war. Nor would Wagner men have fought their own countrymen with any kind of enthusiasm. This is clearly a black eye for Putin, but there just doesn’t seem to be an alternative to him, barring a Palace Coup

[french frank]

but there just doesn’t seem to be an alternative to him, barring a Palace Coup

And if there were a replacement, who would it be? Would it actually be someone who always thought the Ukraine invasion was a mistake? Would it be someone who thought Putin just failed in what he tried to do or that he was wrong in attempting them?

[vinteuil]

And if there were a replacement, who would it be?

... it might not be 'a' replacement. It could well be many striving warlords, as in Europe when the Roman Empire withdrew. But this time 'civil wars' with competing warlords - and x thousand nuclear warheads. Possibly a worse nightmare than Putin...