Ukraine

[french frank]

Fancies himself as a comedian perhaps.

The crucial thing is not what is claimed but who the audience is. If he'd been addressing those very same words to a Russian nationalist audience there would have been no laughter.

[richardfinegold]

Fancies himself as a comedian perhaps. Not a very good one. Then of course back here we have Bojo claiming that he's been exonerated by recent "evidence" about parties in Downing Streeet. Some of these people are living in a fantasy world, or alternatively they are just lying. They think that if they keep reiterating the same rubbish that people will believe and accept that.

Worked for Hitler.

[french frank]

Worked for Hitler.

Works for Trump. People seem to latch on to personalities, individuals, and somehow place their trust totally in them as being able to deliver something "good" (i.e. whatever they themselves want, for whatever reason).

[vinteuil]

Works for Trump. People seem to latch on to personalities, individuals, and somehow place their trust totally in them as being able to deliver something "good" (i.e. whatever they themselves want, for whatever reason).

... worked for Yeshua ben Yosef

.

[french frank]

... worked for Yeshua ben Yosef

.

But possibly moreso now than then in terms of, even relative, numbers? And with the message frequently processed? :-)

[Dave2002]

Works for Trump. People seem to latch on to personalities, individuals, and somehow place their trust totally in them as being able to deliver something "good" (i.e. whatever they themselves want, for whatever reason).

In "The Donald's" case not everyone who "supported" him really placed their trust in him. I recall one of Ed Ball's programmes in which he discussed Trump with a couple of guys from the woods. When he asked them whether they thought he was really any good, they replied something like "No, of couse not, but we're $100 a week/month (can't remember which ...) better off, because of the handouts he arranged." So they apparently assessed him realistically, but as they were slightly better off they were somewhat appreciative.

[richardfinegold]

Goebbels used to say people will believe a lie if it is repeated often enough.

[oddoneout]

Goebbels used to say people will believe a lie if it is repeated often enough.

And that includes the person who seeded the lie in the first place it too often seems these days.

[french frank]

And that includes the person who seeded the lie in the first place it too often seems these days.

More appropriate to the Politics Allowed thread is the alleged WhatsApp comment by a senior civil servant about the trustworthiness of a senior politician. In all these cases it seems that the seed needs to fall on fertile soil in the first place to be believed. Lavrov's same message is believed by the average Russian but not by the average western audience.

[Historian]

Goebbels used to say people will believe a lie if it is repeated often enough.

This goes to the heart of what Lavrov and the other servants of Putin, many of them active in other countries than Russia, are trying to do. Lavrov may or may not have expected to be laughed at when he made his comments. However, he also knows that Russia has a lot of support in areas outside North America and Europe. The ridicule seen in India will no doubt be 'spun' by the Russians as something along the lines of "so-called Western democrats and their hangers on who, unable to accept the truth of Russia's argument - that they were effectively acting in self-defence - resort to false, desperate laughter".

We have to be aware that India, South Africa and many other countries do not follow the pro-Ukraine view. The same is true of a distressingly large number of people on the United States of America as well as in Europe. Lavrov and his friends work very hard to conceal what is going on and ensure that people outside Russia constantly hear the Russian point of view.

Without wishing to set arguments going (again) about the reasons behind the illegal Russian invasion, I cannot but admit that there are good reasons for people in many countries to be less than wholly accepting of the good faith of the USA and its allies. I think they are wrong in this case, but the 'information space' is still being contested for.

[Bryn]

This goes to the heart of what Lavrov and the other servants of Putin, many of them active in other countries than Russia, are trying to do. Lavrov may or may not have expected to be laughed at when he made his comments. However, he also knows that Russia has a lot of support in areas outside North America and Europe. The ridicule seen in India will no doubt be 'spun' by the Russians as something along the lines of "so-called Western democrats and their hangers on who, unable to accept the truth of Russia's argument - that they were effectively acting in self-defence - resort to false, desperate laughter".

We have to be aware that India, South Africa and many other countries do not follow the pro-Ukraine view. The same is true of a distressingly large number of people on the United States of America as well as in Europe. Lavrov and his friends work very hard to conceal what is going on and ensure that people outside Russia constantly hear the Russian point of view.

Without wishing to set arguments going (again) about the reasons behind the illegal Russian invasion, I cannot but admit that there are good reasons for people in many countries to be less than wholly accepting of the good faith of the USA and its allies. I think they are wrong in this case, but the 'information space' is still being contested for.

I concur with the thrust of your final paragraph. Just because the USA M-IC supports a cause does not of itself mean that the cause is not a just one. You keep a long spoon in hand but you have to recognise the most immediate threat to personal freedom and striving for equality comes from within the Kremlin, not the White House.

[eighthobstruction]

....Bakhmut....via Aljarmeera....https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...due-to-bakhmut

[french frank]

Hmmmm. Arrest warrant issued for Putin over war crimes …

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/17/vladimir-putin-arrest-warrant-ukraine-war-crimes

[Historian]

Professor LKLawrence Freedman's most recent article on the language used to describe Kinetic and non-kinetic warfare was published some time ago. He looks at such areas as cyber attacks in modern warfare and then goes on to apply his analysis to the war in Ukraine.

[Dave2002]

Professor LKLawrence Freedman's most recent article on the language used to describe Kinetic and non-kinetic warfare was published some time ago. He looks at such areas as cyber attacks in modern warfare and then goes on to apply his analysis to the war in Ukraine.

Very interesting article. A sad world in which such detailed analysis and other related activities - implementations - counter defences etc., now seem to be necessary.