Ukraine

[Frances_iom]

... In 1914, everything German was deemed to be inherently evil. ....

There had been several commentators well before 1914 pointing out the Prussian militarisation of Germany (eg all youths had compulsory military training) and the build up of their navy - the invasion of Belgium and the German treatment of civilians featured widely in the press with the influx of many Belgian refugees - enemy Aliens were required to register with the local police (there were up to this time little or no immigration formalities, nor was any records kept - internment camps were hastily established - there appeared to be little planning for this but after some weeks significant numbers were released from the camps after Kitchener pointed out the high costs of these camps - basically it seems if the internees could support themselves and would cause no provocation they were released but with restrictions on movements, certain port towns were out of bounds - it was the sinking of the Lusitania in May 1915 that provoked riots in many cities (esp London + Liverpool) as well as destruction of German owned shops, that provoked the wholesale internment of any who held German nationality (which included many who had been in the UK for many years and even had sons fighting in the army) - the Daily Mail was seen as the main purveyor of anti-German articles and it seems from reading various memos in the Foreign Office files of the period these articles played a significant role in shaping official responses but even then there were some in the civil service pointing out that there were significant numbers not interned and causing no problems.

[duncan]

<edit> it was the sinking of the Lusitania in May 1915 that provoked riots in many cities (esp London + Liverpool) as well as destruction of German owned shops, that provoked the wholesale internment of any who held German nationality (which included many who had been in the UK for many years and even had sons fighting in the army) - the Daily Mail was seen as the main purveyor of anti-German articles and it seems from reading various memos in the Foreign Office files of the period these articles played a significant role in shaping official responses but even then there were some in the civil service pointing out that there were significant numbers not interned and causing no problems.

Germanophobia had grown since the Franco-Prussian war and emergence of Germany as a military power and economic competitor. The Riddle of the Sands (1903) is a good literary example. However the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas became Windsors, and Battenberg Mountbatten, only in 1917. It was not until its later stages, when the war became closer to total, that sentiment swung against Anglo-Germans in general.

[Dave2002]

I was really rather surprised to see the news clips yesterday of the Ukrainian wheat fields, and farmers working just a few miles from a battle front, and a Ukrainian plane flying over and being targetted by a missile - which missed. Who would want to work in those conditions?

Now we hear that there is some sort of agreement to allow the export of grain both from Russia and Ukraine - very odd times.

[Frances_iom]

Now we hear that there is some sort of agreement to allow the export of grain both from Russia and Ukraine - very odd times.

plus the aiming of several cruise missiles towards the Port of Odessa where the grain silos are - maybe just to demonstrate the opinion Putin has of the UN

[Dave2002]

plus the aiming of several cruise missiles towards the Port of Odessa where the grain silos are - maybe just to demonstrate the opinion Putin has of the UN

I couldn't possibly comment.

[Serial_Apologist]

I couldn't possibly comment.

One comment made yesterday by someone who was introduced as authoritative was that Putin would not be likely to tarnish his own propaganda blaming his "special operation" on Ukrainians by attacking grain supposedly protected in the latest agreement as this would lend credence to the Ukraine. It seems that was a wrong assessment. This is very bad news.

[Frances_iom]

One comment made yesterday by someone who was introduced as authoritative was that Putin would not be likely to tarnish his own propaganda blaming his "special operation" on Ukrainians by attacking grain supposedly protected ...

If you read the various assessments of Putin in Sweeney's "Killer in the Kremlin" this act is not unlikely - it is typical of Putin to demonstrate he can get away with anything

[french frank]

If you read the various assessments of Putin in Sweeney's "Killer in the Kremlin" this act is not unlikely - it is typical of Putin to demonstrate he can get away with anything

In any case, the Russians have already denied any involvement. Another case of the Ukrainians bombing themselves to pieces, presumably, in order to blame the Russians.

[Frances_iom]

In any case, the Russians have already denied any involvement. Another case of the Ukrainians bombing themselves to pieces, presumably, in order to blame the Russians.

that nonsense has already been replaced by a claims of highly accurate strikes on military targets - it seems a delivery of American anti-ship missiles;

[french frank]

that nonsense has already been replaced by a claims of highly accurate strikes on military targets - it seems a delivery of American anti-ship missiles;

They looked closely into the claims they had bombed Odesa, violating the agreement, and discovered they had destroyed a Ukrainian ship and US missiles with high precision weapons - a fact of which they were previously unaware.

[Historian]

There is increasing evidence that Ukraine has begun the long hoped-for counter-offensive.

After a period of extended pressure against Russian positions around Kherson and south of Zaporizhzhia Ukraine has now severely damaged key bridges to the south and east of the former city. This gives Russia some very difficult choices: either retreat from Kherson while they still can (although without much of their heavy equipment) or stay there and await events. Of course, I have no way of knowing what Ukraine's tactics will be, although an assault on Kherson seems the least likely option as they have no wish to kill their own people and destroy the city. Possible alternatives include isolating the Russian garrison and waiting for them to surrender, or a large offensive in occupied Zaporizhzhia oblast which will undermine the whole Russian position north of Crimea.

Either way, Russian attempts to organise some kind of fake referendum in Kherson - apparently scheduled for September 11th - seem even more unrealistic than before.

[Dave2002]

that nonsense has already been replaced by a claims of highly accurate strikes on military targets - it seems a delivery of American anti-ship missiles;

It is possible that the claims on both sides are false. No need to give out too much information.

[Historian]

It is possible that the claims on both sides are false. No need to give out too much information.

Yes, Ukraine is very careful which information it releases and when. However, as mentioned before, Russia has a tendency to issue outright lies on a regular basis.

[french frank]

Russia has a tendency to issue outright lies on a regular basis.

The referendum, confirming as it does the intention to annex Kherson to form part of Russia, is in line with Lavrov's statement that Russia's war aims have "expanded". Except that Russia's intention to 'expand its war aims' (i.e. not limit itself to 'liberating Donbas' - and eventually annex it) has been what the rest of the world fully expected.

The Kherson situation is very interesting. It may only have fallen to the Russians in the first place because the attack came shortly after the invasion began and Ukraine didn't then have the capability to fight back. It has now.

[Historian]

There is increasing evidence that Ukraine has begun the long hoped-for counter-offensive.

After a period of extended pressure against Russian positions around Kherson and south of Zaporizhzhia Ukraine has now severely damaged key bridges to the south and east of the former city. This gives Russia some very difficult choices: either retreat from Kherson while they still can (although without much of their heavy equipment) or stay there and await events.

This is discussed in Lawrence Freedman's latest article 'The Battle for Kherson and Why It Matters'.