Originally posted by Joseph K
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Ukraine
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Originally posted by Dave2002 View PostMaybe, but like me you may be assuming that the people you know are representative of the whole and that their views, as passed on by you, should have greater weight. I know, or have known, personally many people who would not share the opinions you mention, though you have qualified your statement with a restrictive filter. You might also know people who "have considerable experience of living and studying in Soviet satellite regimes" who have not been filtered by the constraint of "those on the 'left'", but you have not stated that.
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Originally posted by RichardB View PostYes, this is really getting tiresome.
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Originally posted by RichardB View PostYes, this is really getting tiresome. Everyone here who has expressed a critical view of NATO would I am sure hold a much more critical view of the Putin régime. Surely that goes without saying.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostThat is the point. That one argument is repeated ad nauseam, the other - which 'goes without saying' - goes unsaid. I don't think a balanced view of the world can be presented unless the whole picture, the way everything fits together, is considered.
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostYou should be really careful there, ff - people who think polyvalently are always in serious danger of ending up as dialectical materialists!
The point about my graphic is that the part of the picture you can see is "real". I'm not one to dispute that. It's equally "tiresome" to hear that view being regurgitated.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by Frances_iom View PostInternational Socialism from Lenin's time onwards meant a Dictatorship nominally of the Proletariat but in practice by those who operated the system - it is remarkable that those countries that have at one time espoused Marxist-Leninism (Russia + China) operate highly repressive regimes for some if not all of their populace - maybe it is age but I now believe that systems, imperfect as they might be, that have well engineered systems of checks and balances on power can offer the greatest happiness to it populations - maybe these will evolve into a form of Communism but all previous regimes that are based on an ideological belief that all men can live under a single belief system be it Christianity, Islam or Leninism have proved significantly unpleasant regimes to live under for the bulk of the population. The Open Society offers a much better solution.
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post..Socialism has not been afforded that luxury in its century and a bit of quasi-existence.
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Originally posted by Bryn View PostMy point was prompted by a claim to the contrary in #970. I make no attempt to generalise from my personal experience but merely to challenge the generalisation in #970.
The existence of such people is not contradictory - it's perfectly possible. The statements are likely to be correct. The concern is that such statements will be taken and generalised. An added factor at the present time is that I believe that many who hold pro Putin/pro war [but they can't say that ...] views do not have such a clear picture. That's not to say that mine is automatically better, but I do have what I consider to be the benefit of having many different sources of information, and can make judgements based on them. It is unlikely that a majority of people in Russia or countries which support the current action have access to so many sources, and of course some of the people will be uninterested anyway. I suppose I and others may hold the view that they would be less likely to support these actions if they had much richer and wider ranging sources on which to base their opinions.
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Originally posted by Dave2002 View PostAnd that justifies its continued existence and our acceptance of it?!It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by Frances_iom View PostSocialism is in many respects merely Christianity (which was itself heretical Judaism mediated thru Greek Philosophy + Roman Power structures) with its belief in the perfectibility of Man but without the need for a supernatural controlling entity - such early 'socialist' societies can exist but rapidly fall apart when numbers involved exceed the size of a small village.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostIn what way are we obliged to "accept" it?
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