Ukraine

[RichardB]

Needing to make a choice - of some sort - where there are no good options?

Exactly. Imagine though that, as an alternative to sending more arms to Ukraine, the emphasis was put on spreading information within Russia about the invasion, supporting anti-government organisations there, as well as disaffected elements within the Russian armed forces - since any end to the aggression is much more likely to come from within Russia than from Ukraine. The fact that there is no massive effort in this direction would tend to support my suggestion made earlier that NATO's aim is to get Russia bogged down in a long, expensive and draining occupation, rather than saving the lives of Ukrainians.

[RichardB]

I'd contend that any army contains a certain percentage of squaddies who, if given carte blanche from the top to behave brutally, would do so. Where that leads is another thing, but the Russian squaddies will no doubt justify this as they're being told that they're shooting down nazis, as that's what's coming from Putin.

A large proportion of military training is directed towards conditioning soldiers to obey orders without question, putting aside any individual qualms about their actions, dehumanising the enemy whoever that is, and so on. This is, as you imply, how many atrocities happen, whether in Ukraine or anywhere else (Abu Ghraib, Vietnam etc.).

[Frances_iom]

ok I should have said Russian military psyche - but as someone has pointed out a significant fraction of troops appear to be poorly trained conscripts and apparently badly led - as to the comment that if only the west could broadcast the truth all would be harmony and light - look at China and the great firewall, look at the near total disappearance of a free(ish) press or media in Russia - just how does is a relatively free media to operate ? except in the imagination of certain individuals.

[RichardB]

as to the comment that if only the west could broadcast the truth all would be harmony and light - look at China and the great firewall, look at the near total disappearance of a free(ish) press or media in Russia

And yet we are supposed to believe that Russians were influential in the outcome of the Brexit vote and the election of Trump in 2016. Anyone with a VPN can avoid restrictions on internet access. I don't see how reducing your "psyche" idea to Russian soldiers is particularly helpful or enlightening. If there's something distinctive about the way the Russian military behaves, this will surely be the outcome of history and geography rather than anything "inbred".

[Frances_iom]

.... Anyone with a VPN can avoid restrictions on internet access. ...

the amount of your wishful thinking defies all rationality - yes a few(relative to population) privileged techies can do so but China has already stomped hard on such VPNs and I doubt very much if the average Russian TV viewer has such access.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well maybe if a few weapons were put into the Rhineland in 1934 when Hitler marched in with his puny Wehrmacht a whole lot lives would have been saved. Or the French and British arming the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War might have made Franco and Mussolini and Hitler think that Fascism isn’t unstoppable. Letting aggression go unchecked usually leads to more aggression

The dropping of the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is estimated to have “ saved “ 1,000,000 , largely US and Japanese lives compared with a D-day style invasion. People forget just how destructive conventional bombing and artillery fire can be.
I would admit that discussion of nukes in the Ukraine context isn’t exactly reassuring.

[Ein Heldenleben]

A large proportion of military training is directed towards conditioning soldiers to obey orders without question, putting aside any individual qualms about their actions, dehumanising the enemy whoever that is, and so on. This is, as you imply, how many atrocities happen, whether in Ukraine or anywhere else (Abu Ghraib, Vietnam etc.).

That is just not accurate - a part of UK military training is about sticking to military law. Some UK soldiers have been prosecuted for breaches. Unfortunately from time to time soldiers choose to ignore military law , Human rights legislation and the Geneva Convention . The abuse of prisoners in Iraq is not comparable to what is going on in the Ukraine.

[Bryn]

That is just not accurate - a part of UK military training is about sticking to military law. Some UK soldiers have been prosecuted for breaches. Unfortunately from time to time soldiers choose to ignore military law , Human rights legislation and the Geneva Convention . The abuse of prisoners in Iraq is not comparable to what is going on in the Ukraine.

In which case, things have changed substantially since I went through Basic and Continuation Training back in 1966. Back then, under the guise of preparing us for enemy interrogation and possible torture, we were introduced to and experienced techniques such as waterboarding. These very techniques were used by the British Army in Northern Ireland a few years later.

[Serial_Apologist]

In which case, things have changed substantially since I went through Basic and Continuation Training back in 1966. Back then, under the guise of preparing us for enemy interrogation and possible torture, we were introduced to and experienced techniques such as waterboarding. These very techniques were used by the British Army in Northern Ireland a few years later.

One understands these were being applied in US military training for Iraq and Afghanistan - but in any case, RichardB was referring not solely to British military training, from how I read his post.

[RichardB]

the amount of your wishful thinking defies all rationality - yes a few(relative to population) privileged techies can do so but China has already stomped hard on such VPNs and I doubt very much if the average Russian TV viewer has such access.

What I'm doing is trying to think through possible solutions that don't involve killing yet more people. No doubt there are holes in my arguments. I'm not an expert in international relations. Are you?

The dropping of the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is estimated to have “ saved “ 1,000,000

Estimated by whom? My understanding is that the Japanese were already well on their way to surrendering without a D-Day type invasion being necessary at all, and that the bombs (and why two?) were dropped principally for geopolitical and experimental reasons.

[RichardB]

That is just not accurate - a part of UK military training is about sticking to military law.

I wasn't just referring to the UK military, nor did I claim that the indoctrination I described constituted the whole of military training. It is certainly an important part though - it wouldn't suit the aims of the military at all if the lower ranks would be thinking for themselves, asking questions etc. - hence squarebashing and all the other functionally pointless activities that training involves.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wasn't just referring to the UK military, nor did I claim that the indoctrination I described constituted the whole of military training. It is certainly an important part though - it wouldn't suit the aims of the military at all if the lower ranks would be thinking for themselves, asking questions etc. - hence squarebashing and all the other functionally pointless activities that training involves.

Wrong again I’m afraid - way out of date . True in the fifties maybe but not now .Thinking for yourself and maintaining the ability to act in broken chains of command is exactly what UK Armed forces esp elite units like the Marines and Paras encourage . It’s one of the things that the Ukrainians have picked up. Their ability to improvise on the battlefield is helping them run rings around supposedly superior Russian forces.

[RichardB]

True in the fifties maybe but not now

In that case I bow to your superior knowledge! Most of what I know about military training goes back to my father describing his National Service Be that as it may, it still amazes me what kinds of atrocities can be committed by people who seem to be blindly following orders.

[Frances_iom]

...Be that as it may, it still amazes me what kinds of atrocities can be committed by people who seem to be blindly following orders.

suggest you look at reasons why the Russian zone in Germany developed into the GDR with its surveillance state - Putin's forces are merely continuing that long tradition but they are not alone - occupying forces soon become despised by those occupied and any resistance, even passive, is difficult for the troops to handle and thus they resort to simple brute force - sometimes such brutality cowers a population but such 'peace' is often too expensive to maintain and results in problems that last many generations eg massacres by English troops in Ireland during Cromwell's attempt to rid the Island of Catholics were still mentioned in my youth, and led to some 3 centuries of troubles still unresolved in some parts.

[Dave2002]

While we argue about whether lives can "be saved" by killing some people, either as a deterrent to others, or to stop their immediate actions, we can ponder about the impact on our snacks.

Crisps might become more expensive!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60941091