Ukraine

[french frank]

No doubt. But as JK says, it's actually the same system. "Benign" wouldn't be the word I'd use.

I was making a comparison between the two countries/polities where the system is said to be 'the same'. I didn't call either system 'benign': I said the system that delivers a Biden government was more benign than (the same) system delivering a Putin government and unleashing a war such as we're seeing in Ukraine. Given the differing origins, what causes them to converge?

[RichardB]

what causes them to converge?

Imperialism.

[Joseph K]

Given the differing origins, what causes them to converge?

That's the wrong way round - the origins are the same - Friedmanite Neoliberal Disaster Capitalism - which finds itself in many differing shades depending on what country it manifests itself in, which is where it diverges.

[french frank]

That's the wrong way round - the origins are the same - Friedmanite Neoliberal Disaster Capitalism - which finds itself in many differing shades depending on what country it manifests itself in, which is where it diverges.

Well, getting back to the Varoufakis video: I didn't think there was anything particularly 'left' about his suggested way forward. It was more or less the conclusions already arrived at but so far there is no hint that Putin will accept any of them. There were the usual swipes at the US/the West/the EU which seem 'unhelpful' just at this juncture (to my way of thinking) - however justifiable one might find the criticisms. 'Useful' in the same way that Tucker Carlson's diatribes against Biden have provided fuel for Putin's propaganda machine.

[cloughie]

Now I may have missed something but wasn’t Ukraine fairly neutral before Putin started annexing bits in 2014 and blowinig the place to pieces last month?

[teamsaint]

typical comment from a left wing thinker - to whom autocracy is great as long as the autocrat is one of them - the engineering solution is to accept the problems of a popular vote but to build in checks and balances as in the US constitution - one key check is to sort out the toxic social messaging systems that feed situations such as Trump.

There is " toxic social messaging " right across the spectrum(s) of thought.
Short of very dramatic and potentially damaging restrictions, I'm not sure what can realistically be done, or is being sensibly suggested ?

The checks and balances in the US are surely designed to broadly protect the status quo ? Which is fine if you are OK with the status quo.

[teamsaint]

No doubt. But as JK says, it's actually the same system. "Benign" wouldn't be the word I'd use. Look at the corruption in the UK government whose uncovering was almost daily news before this war started, and of course that can be multiplied severalfold in the USA where the rule is government by the rich for the rich to an even greater extent.

I agree. The US ( just as an example) doesn't look terribly benign if you live in certain places, mostly outside of Europe. The CIA has plenty of blood on its hands.

And that's before you start looking at the arms trade. ( French exocets to Argentina anybody ?)

[french frank]

The US ( just as an example) doesn't look terribly benign if you live in certain places, mostly outside of Europe. The CIA has plenty of blood on its hands.

To repeat the answer I gave previously, I was simply making a comparison between the domestic system of government of the US and that of Russia, and I considered one 'more benign' than the other. Happy to rethink the phrase 'more benign' and say 'more democratic'. With all its faults I can't see the US system as being as bad as Russia's. But I suppose it depends on how you measure it …

But trying (again) to bring the discussion back to Ukraine, the situation is on a knife edge and it really does depend on how well the West can 'manage' Putin and offer a settlement which he can accept, which in reality means what will Ukraine sacrifice by way of 'rewarding' the aggressor. What kind of settlement will both sides accept in Donbas? If Russia claims that areas (even countries) with a majority/substantial Russian population are 'part of Russia', where does that end in terms of other European nations?

[Historian]

But trying (again) to bring the discussion back to Ukraine, the situation is on a knife edge and it really does depend on how well the West can 'manage' Putin and offer a settlement which he can accept, which in reality means what will Ukraine sacrifice by way of 'rewarding' the aggressor.

In general I agree. However, the negotiations at the moment are hosted in Turkey and involve Russia and Ukraine, not the USA/NATO et al. So, although the West will have some influence over the outcome it may not be a case of the US etc. offering something to Putin.

[teamsaint]

To repeat the answer I gave previously, I was simply making a comparison between the domestic system of government of the US and that of Russia, and I considered one 'more benign' than the other. Happy to rethink the phrase 'more benign' and say 'more democratic'. With all its faults I can't see the US system as being as bad as Russia's. But I suppose it depends on how you measure it …

But trying (again) to bring the discussion back to Ukraine, the situation is on a knife edge and it really does depend on how well the West can 'manage' Putin and offer a settlement which he can accept, which in reality means what will Ukraine sacrifice by way of 'rewarding' the aggressor. What kind of settlement will both sides accept in Donbas? If Russia claims that areas (even countries) with a majority/substantial Russian population are 'part of Russia', where does that end in terms of other European nations?

There is a problem ( isn’t there?) in the difference between what the Ukrainian govt might be prepared to accept, both in terms of stopping the war and the political realities of power in the region, and what they feel they have to be seen to be doing, not least in terms of rewarding the aggressor, as you point out. The same probably applies to Russia too,to an extent, though at this stage they don’t seem very bothered about stopping the fighting.

[Serial_Apologist]

To repeat the answer I gave previously, I was simply making a comparison between the domestic system of government of the US and that of Russia, and I considered one 'more benign' than the other. Happy to rethink the phrase 'more benign' and say 'more democratic'. With all its faults I can't see the US system as being as bad as Russia's. But I suppose it depends on how you measure it …

Remember though that the US system of democracy as enshrouded in the Constitution was devised when capitalism was still a growing socioeconomic and political force, before the growth and spread of a working class strong enough to challenge its worst aspects and maybe, one day, its power; and long, long before the fall of E bloc Communism. That huge gulf in time, traversing several stages of capitalism's rise and sprawl, renders drawing parallels between the two redundant.

But trying (again) to bring the discussion back to Ukraine, the situation is on a knife edge and it really does depend on how well the West can 'manage' Putin and offer a settlement which he can accept, which in reality means what will Ukraine sacrifice by way of 'rewarding' the aggressor. What kind of settlement will both sides accept in Donbas? If Russia claims that areas (even countries) with a majority/substantial Russian population are 'part of Russia', where does that end in terms of other European nations?

We don't know whether the collective mindset within the Russian establishment is one of solid impregnable group-think or otherwise, but this must be the deciding factor irrespective of opinion in the West. Varoufaki's's drawing attention to popular opposition inside Russia may otherwise seem overstated when compared to the suffering in Ukraine, but for that reason is important to take into consideration.

[french frank]

In general I agree. However, the negotiations at the moment are hosted in Turkey and involve Russia and Ukraine, not the USA/NATO et al. So, although the West will have some influence over the outcome it may not be a case of the US etc. offering something to Putin.

No, and since Zelensky has gone as far as to concede that it's 'not possible' for Ukraine to join Nato, it's hard to see how Nato can get involved. And if 'Abe Lincoln' has any influence with his president, the US will keep quiet and see how things go. Interesting that host Turkey has an occupying army stationed in Northern Cyprus - which Turkey is still alone as recognising as an independent state.

There is a problem ( isn’t there?) in the difference between what the Ukrainian govt might be prepared to accept, both in terms of stopping the war and the political realities of power in the region, and what they feel they have to be seen to be doing, not least in terms of rewarding the aggressor, as you point out. The same probably applies to Russia too,to an extent, though at this stage they don’t seem very bothered about stopping the fighting.

Russia/Putin doesn't need to bother over much as they have such tight control over what information people get they can sell them anything. Zelensky is interesting. He was already popular and the role he's played so far has certainly done him no harm. The Ukrainians may well be prepared to accept what he asks them to. In which case the referendum and other conditions may have been set out as red lines several meters ahead of what he'll be - 'regretfully' - forced to concede. Rather like Nato membership.

[french frank]

Remember though that the US system of democracy as enshrouded in the Constitution was devised when capitalism was still a growing socioeconomic and political force, before the growth and spread of a working class strong enough to challenge its worst aspects and maybe, one day, its power; and long, long before the fall of E bloc Communism. That huge gulf in time, traversing several stages of capitalism's rise and sprawl, renders drawing parallels between the two redundant.

I have to hold my hands up here and confess: I have no interest in analysing the rights and wrongs of how we got here unless that is going to suggest a way out of the immediate tragedy.

We don't know whether the collective mindset within the Russian establishment is one of solid impregnable group-think or otherwise, but this must be the deciding factor irrespective of opinion in the West. Varoufaki's's drawing attention to popular opposition inside Russia may otherwise seem overstated when compared to the suffering in Ukraine, but for that reason is important to take into consideration.

I don't ignore it, but I'm not very optimistic that the movement will get sufficient momentum to have any effect. It ought to. Surely a protest crowd of 100,000 is more than a match for the brutality of - how many? - state agents?

[Petrushka]

What validity would a referendum in Ukraine have when over 3 million of the population, 90% of them women and children, have fled the country and a quarter of the population have been displaced? What would be the logistics of one being held?

On the subject of Russia, an excellent article from Mikhail Shishkin in today's Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...national-guilt

[Historian]

What validity would a referendum in Ukraine have when over 3 million of the population, 90% of them women and children, have fled the country and a quarter of the population have been displaced? What would be the logistics of one being held?

Agreed it would take some time and considerable effort to organise, but I imagine Ukraine would take every possible step to make the result as valid as possible. The length of time taken would be unlikely to increase its attractions for Putin.

That said, I would still trust the outcome rather more than any referendum or other vote overseen by Putin, either in the occupied areas of Ukraine or in Russia itself.